Open Ground in post

[fair winds]

Pulled into Florida park and plugged my Progressive Surge Protector in to find the digital display indicates an "open ground." Chose another site which is okay, but owner of park then trots down to ask why I chose another site. Told her that my surge protector indicated an open ground, and then she proceeds to insult me with: "All you people who have those things think you're electricians. There's no danger." No, I'm not an electrician, but I remember being warned about open ground and reverse polarity, which my surge protector has warned me about before. It's been a long time since I began RVing full time (Dec. of 1989) but I know these little neglected parks can have very poor maintenance. My SP from Progressive as well as the first one from TRC have never let me down. She does not intend to do anything to correct it. Could someone be hurt hooking up to that post? All the park has is 30 amp and any 50-amp coaches have to use a 30 amp extension.
My question is, what is it about Open Ground or Ground Fault that is super dangerous? I know it's somewhere back in memory, but since I am not brilliant in electricity, would like to know how it affects RVers and our coaches. I'm certain there is someone out there who has info on it?
Fair Winds

[whemme]

An open ground post in your coach can be potentially very dangerous to your well being. An example would be the following - If for some reason the hot side lead of the incoming 120 VAC power from the power pedestal were to somehow short to the chassis frame of your coach and you were outside and touched some metal part of your coach such as the cab door and the ground post was open, you would get a rather severe electrical shock, possibly even lethal.

If the hot lead short were to occur with a properly connected ground post, the short in that case would cause the 30 amp breaker, either in the power pedestal or in your coach's circuit breaker box, to open protecting you from that short.

The campground owner in your experience is dead wrong that the open ground post was not a serious issue. You were right in moving to another properly wired site.

[bigdipper]

I have the little yellow circuit tester and always check out the site electricity. In 25 years of so of experience, I find a bad circuit once or twice per year. More often this is in private campgrounds, but once in awhile at a state park or other public spot. Private cg operators have varying levels of understanding the issue. A much more frequent concern is low voltage, almost always at private cgs. There too, the management tends to act clueless. My rule is that if inside voltage under load is below 105, I am out of there when AC is a must. If it is below 110 I am grumpy. Almost always low voltage is a campground wide condition and I continue to be amazed at low awareness level of most Rvers. The high line locations and KOAs are not immune.
JMO
Ralph

[fair winds]

Thanks for the replies. I thought I remembered an open ground as being quite dangerous. Saw several neighbors this evening who said that has always been a "problem site," and now will inform whoever goes in that site to check it. Surge protector is one of best things I ever did for my RV.
I am told that owner uses anyone in park to "fix" things who will do it cheaply or rent break...thus, the occasional RV that's A/C puts out smoke. Thinks signing a waiver protects her, but you cannot waive negligence nor stupidity. Okay for a day or two, then I'm rolling!
Thanks again.
Fairwinds

[Dallas Baillio]

How about identifying the campground? I, and I would think other BF owners, would like to avoid the place.

[stevek]

Good post.
I have not been checking, and just trusting the "vendor".
So.... what about me making something like this?

http://www.myrv.us/electric/pg/tester_30amp.htm

[oliverpsmile]

..... ground post was open, you would get a rather severe electrical shock, possibly even lethal.

Bill, in this case you would not get any shock because the electrical circuit is STILL OPEN. In addition, my impression is that BF neutral (120 VAC system) is not connected to the chassis (Maybe somebody would volunteer to verify that. I am far away from my unit).

The theory and practice of grounded and not grounded systems is complex. And I do not advocate to disregard any safety measures anybody might take.

[bcope01]

Good post.
I have not been checking, and just trusting the "vendor".
So.... what about me making something like this?

http://www.myrv.us/electric/pg/tester_30amp.htm

I like it Steve, and the price is right.

Bill

[fair winds]

In my searches online I find that an open ground when the coach is in full load, i.e., a/c and whatever running, is a good time to check the digital display on the surge protector. Mr. Hemme presents the truth that it is dangerous and can be fatal. OSHA has some articles on it online.
Steve, I have both of those little gauges and use them only inside the coach, but it may work well for you. However, I am happy to have the Progressive, which has saved my coach a couple of times from poor maintenance electrically at the post. I think Surge Guard also now has a digital readout, and either one is worth its weight in gold I have found. Progressive will replace the unit or fix the unit at no charge as it has a warranty...not sure about Surge Guard.
As for the park, I have never posted on RVParkreviews and find they want three of them before they consider posting it. I can say that in Thonotosassa, Hillsborough Co., it has quite a few years since the post in 2006 and the one, lone, recent post touts it as being a swell place, golf, and activities(if you want to get on a bus and go elsewhere to golf.) However, the field they have is really just full of wild grasses, uneven earth and fire ants, and the club house isn't to be used in the summer by the summer folks according to the "rules." I know personally that there are virtually no gravel sites, only grass and soft earth where it floods from poor drainage. Many permanent folks have their MHs up for sale. "Too expensive to put in 50 amp,"and the voltage goes down drastically on the 30 amp, "too expensive to take credit cards," and evidently too expensive to use good screws in the water faucet handles at the post because it can take pliers(OMG what a fraca over that!) to turn the water on and off. I've stayed here off and on as it's convenient to work but I think I'll join the "migration" and find another park very soon. Besides, the only way mowing happens is if you pay a fee(ahead of time) for mowers to go around and keep the grass from covering wheels. That is all I can personally speak to. I really like to stay in LazyDays Rally Park in Seffner(expensive) or some of the Orlando parks. I just tell it like I see it. Edited: the screws are rusted into the water handles on the faucet, and heck to turn.

[whemme]

Oliver,

I checked my 2002 Born Free 26' RSB coach and as I expected, the ground terminal of the 120 vac, 30-amp inlet connector on the coach is in fact connected directly to the chassis frame of the coach.

So if the ground connection is open at the power pedestal and if for some reason the hot side of the 120 vac wiring into the coach somehow gets shorted to chassis ground, then anyone outside the coach touching any part of the coach connected to the chassis could receive a shock in my opinion.

[bigdipper]

Bill,
Just to add to a thread I do not completely understand, an inverter, at least in my case, will show open ground on the 120 V circuit tester when changing 12V to 120V and the presumed experts told me that was perfectly OK. Something about floating. Both the solar folks who designed my system and the inverter tech service guy so indicated. Born Free people who actually put it all together did not have a lot to say other than if the above two folks thought it was OK, they agreed. To date, after 4 years everything works and neither I nor dear wife have had any shocking experiences.
Ralph

[whemme]

Copied the following information below off of the internet. So if the ground connection at the pedestal is open and there happens to be a short in the coach wiring between the hot wire and the coach chassis and since the neutral wire is connected to earth ground, then when plugged into pedestal power under these conditions, the coach chassis will be hot with 120 vac on it relative to earth ground.

So these two fault conditions taken together would create a very dangerous condition. Since the coach is insulated from earth ground sitting on 6 rubber tires, the coach chassis will be 120 vac hot above earth ground. Stepping on the ground outside with a hand say on the metal cab door would result in a rather severe shock.

[oliverpsmile]

....since the neutral wire is connected to earth ground..

Yes Bill - this would be the third "fault" condition, provided it were at the pedestal.

I do not know if the Progressive surge protector has any indication if the chassis is SECURELY connected to the ground wire of the shore power connector as every home appliance. Otherwise your scenario could happen with or without "open ground" message.

And Yes from the Internet, the electricity is not to play games with.

[randallrae]

I recently attended a seminar about the progressive EMS PT-30C . It kills power to the coach if there is an open ground , open neutral , hot neutral reverse , low voltage , high voltage , and off frequency . Like the man says by the time you can react to all the inexpensive test devices your 100k+ coach is damaged , and the progressive works no matter where you are or what you are doing . Those testers only indicate what is happening at this moment , and you can't watch them 24 7 .