Winter use

[Roger H]

The Born Free's water lines are all interconnected with no bypass values (except for the water heater input and output lines) so there is no way to isolate various lines and use only some of the lines in the winter and keep pink antifreeze in other isolated and unused water lines.

Bill is, of course, correct; however, that doesn't mean you can't install shut off valves and isolate specific sections of the plumbing to do exactly what you're describing. My Bigfoot 25RQ travel trailer has shut-off valves for the outside shower that, once winterized, can be shut off.

It would certainly be a nuisance in the spring to de-winterize because you'd have several sets of valves to open, but it could certainly be done. My 23RK has fairly simple plumbing that is pretty much localized to the cabinet below the bathroom sink. I'd think that most of the Born Free coaches have a similar setup at the city water inlet/water tank location where the pump is, and the lines run from there.

Once you installed the shutoffs, you'd have to winterize the entire system properly with the valves open, then close the valves for all those areas you weren't planning on using, and then flush the parts you are planning to use with fresh water again.

Roger

[skimadre]

Larry and Sharon: Wal Mart seems to have the best price for RV antifreeze. I think the shower area is the biggest problem, but stuffing insulation between the walls and putting heat in the shower shoulld help. The only other problem is the outside shower and I have not found a way to protect that area.

[BornFree_n_Now]

Fred and Connie

Thank you for the heads-up regarding pricing/Wal Mart, the other places we have seen the product are pricing it around $4.99 a gallon, so we will check and see what their price is.

In the area behind the shower, we placed tubular pipe insulators on the supply lines and on the rear of the valves ~~ with regard to the outside shower, we made a fiberglass insulation pillow (covered the insulation with heavy garbage bag material), it seems like it should do the trick, but we will see. We also drained the hose, as best we could, and are leaving the water control at the head open.

[bill crommett]

If we have to go through cold weather on our way to somewhere warm, I prefer to blow out the whole system dry and put antifreeze in the gray and black tanks as well as the traps. Then we carry along a couple of large bottles of water for rinsing and flushing. This is good for three or four days with no worries. It is a bit like tent camping, but I can remember those cold nights far too well.

[Mike Jean Bandfield]

~~ with regard to the outside shower, we made a fiberglass insulation pillow (covered the insulation with heavy garbage bag material), it seems like it should do the trick, but we will see. We also drained the hose, as best we could, and are leaving the water control at the head open.

No one has mentioned the outside shower shut-off or bypass valves. It occurred to me that people may not know they exist. When we ordered our BF I asked for shut-off valves to be installed behind the outside shower and was told the valves are standard equipment. In the RSB the valves are directly behind the drawer under the cooktop. Remove the drawer to access the 2 shutoff valves.

We blow out the water lines rather than use the bad tasting antifreeze. Its easier, faster and cheaper than using the pink stuff - especially if you take the BF out several times throughout the winter. Once blown out we turn off the outside shower shut-off valves off AND leave them turned off when we go out winter camping. (The procedure would be similar using the pink stuff.)

Regarding the corner behind the shower:

I'd intended wrapping the lines here with heat tape until I actually looked into it and determined how difficult that would be. Instead, I found a small thermostatically controlled switch at the local hardware store (~$12). I use it to control a 200W light bulb in a wire cage type trouble light which I mounted inside the corner access panel behind the shower. The wire cage effectively centers the bulb in the area keeping it from getting too close to either the shower or outside wall. It turns on at 35 degrees and off at 45 degrees. We also leave the shower door open at night and pour a little pink stuff in the shower drain. At night you can see the corner of the shower glow when it is operating. The few times we have seen it come on have been on nights that got down below 22 degrees.

We've never done anything about holding tanks - fortunately w/o consequence. (I'd sure hate to break a black tank pipe or valve.)

One nice thing about the trouble light solution is that once it is installed you can virtually forget about it. Its always there and only comes on when needed.

The downside, of course, is that it requires an AC connection.

[bcope01]

Mike & Jean should know a thing or two about winterizing. They live adjacent to Crater Lake National Park which averages 533 inches of snow a year (thats 44.5 feet for us ex-military).

Bill

[whemme]

Mike & Jean,

How did you run AC power to your 200 watt lamp? Did you run it inside the walls of the coach or outside and around to one of the outside AC recepticles?

Of course, this method works when you have shore line power availlable but won't work when you are dry campling unless you are willing to run the generator all night.

[Mike Jean Bandfield]

How did you run AC power to your 200 watt lamp? Did you run it inside the walls of the coach or outside and around to one of the outside AC recepticles?

Bill, I ran a 14 ga extension cord from an available AC outlet under the vanity, through the plumbing channel behind the toilet and into the area behind the shower. The cord would not fit through with the molded plug attached. It had to be cut-off and a replacement plug was attached once the cord had been threaded through. The thermostat plugs into the extension cord and the trouble light plugs into the thermostat.

The light bulb is a long-life heavy duty variety that should never burn out considering the light usage. The assembly remains installed and plugged in winter and summer. There's no need to disturb it because it only turns on when there is AC power and the temperature behind the shower approaches freezing.

Mike

PS. Yes, we have winter but not as bad as Bill makes it sound. The west side of Crater Lake gets 50' of snow but 6 miles across the lake the east shore gets only 10'. We're 40 miles SE of Crater Lake, on the east side of the cascades, in the high desert. At ~4000 feet we're 3000' lower than Crater Lake. Here we get much less snow - usually 1-2 feet all winter. In fact, Klamath Falls is nicknamed, Oregon's city of sunshine because the sun shines 320 days a year.

[TwoShihtzus]

~~We blow out the water lines rather than use the bad tasting antifreeze...

Can you describe the process you use for blowing out the water lines? I assume you use some sort of low pressure air compressor, but how low, and where do you plug in the air hose (and how). I'd love to stop using the pink stuff...

[Dave&JanPotter]

~~We blow out the water lines rather than use the bad tasting antifreeze...

Can you describe the process you use for blowing out the water lines? I assume you use some sort of low pressure air compressor, but how low, and where do you plug in the air hose (and how). I'd love to stop using the pink stuff...

I use low pressure air to blow out my lines. You don't want to use a pressure higher than your water pump working pressure and take a chance on creating a leak. I use 30 psi or lower. You should look for an oil-less air compressor or use a filter trap on the air line so you are not blowing a fine mist of oil into your water system and contaminating it. You should also remember that since air is compressible, you are storing up a bit of energy in the water heater and you need to be careful when you vent the system. Just about any RV supply store will have a fitting that screws into your city water pressure fill line. These fittings allow you to put an air hose fitting on that line and pressurize the system. They only cost a couple of bucks. Since they require constant hand pressure to hold the air hose in place, I used a short length of garden hose and a small radiator hose clamp to attach that fitting to a male air fitting which will allow the air hose to be connected without constant pressure, (like the ones that attach lengths of air hose together). There are several different types of fittings that can do this, just get one to match the female fitting on your air hose. As for the procedure in the M/H, I first open all the drain valves and faucet outlets and let gravity drain out as much water as possible, including the water heater and main FW storage tank. I then close up the system, attach the air hose, turn on the compressor and go through the coach opening each faucet carefully until the line to that faucet is clear. I start from the faucet farthest from the water tank and work toward the tank, but usually have to go over the sequence twice to get all the water out. Don't forget to open both the hot and cold faucets and don't forget the commode flush line. You can tell when a line is clear as the gurgling sound will stop and only air will come out. Be sure to do the outside shower also. When done, turn off the compressor and vent the lines of all pressure by opening the outside shower valve. There is usually a small amount of water trapped in the inlet screen for the water pump so now is a good time to disconnect it, drain it and ccheck/clean the screen. I check/change the zinc in my hot water heater at this time also. You still need to use the pink stuff for the sink and shower drains. I pour a cup or so in each to fill the traps. This procedure can still leave you with some water in the FW storage tank, but that hasn't been a problem for me although it might be for others storing their rig outside in a colder part of the country.

[Mike Jean Bandfield]

I follow Dave&Jan's procedures pretty closely. I only have a few additional comments.

The procedure requires a compressor with tank. Although I haven't tried it, I don't believe a simple tire pump would be able to provide the volume of air needed to dry the lines. You could argue that the hot water heater could take the place of the air tank but the process would take too long.

35 lbs pressure works well for me. At each station, open the valves for about one second, wait a couple of seconds for the pressure in the system to recover and then open the valve again. Repeat this opening and closing until the valve stops sputtering and the air comes out dry. (I differ with Dave&Jan on the sequence.) Start bleeding lines closest to the input and work your way around to the furthest tap. In our 26' RSB the order is:

1. Water heater. (When dry I bypass the water heater then procede to the next valves.)
2. Shower valves (hot and cold)
3. Commode
4. Commode sprayer
5. Vanity Sink valves (hot and cold)
6. Outside shower (hot and cold)
7. Kitchen sink (hot and cold)
8. Hot and Cold line valves (located on the floor under the kitchen sink)

Repeat 2-8 and make sure they are still blowing dry air.

9. Disconnect the input and output lines to the water pump. Hold an air hose to the input and turn the pump on for a couple seconds. A rag over the output will soak up the small amount of water that comes out.

You will always have a residual amount of water in the fresh water tank regardless which winterizing technique you use unless you put pink stuff in your fresh water tank. I've never put antifreeze in the fresh water tank but I do make sure the tank is at an attitude that allows it to drain completely. We've been doing this for many years and never had a problem.

Mike

[Roger H]

I did the "blow out" procedure for years with my RVs as I didn't want to use the "pink stuff" because it was hard to flush thoroughly in the spring. The last three years, I've used anti-freeze. I don't know if the formulation is better or what, but it seems to flush immediately now. Further, winterizing literally takes only minutes; long enough to get a solid stream of anti-freeze at each location, and I don't have to worry about whether or not all of the water got out of the water pump and check valve. The water is just replaced with anti-freeze.

I don't hesitate to recommend the anti-freeze route any more.

Oh, and what residual water or waste are in your tanks won't make an difference. Water that freezes hard with no where to expand is what causes problems. A thin sheet of ice in a tank won't hurt anything.

Roger

[whemme]

I agree with Roger above. Using pink RV anti-freeze is the way to do it. You don't have to worry about not getting all the water out of your water pump or any low lying areas of your water lines. It takes only about 1.5 gallons of anti-freeze to completely displace the water in all lines, faucets, and fittings including putting a quantity in the traps in both sinks, the shower drain, and the toilet. In my estimation, I can complete the winterzation process using anti-freeze in about 1/3 the time it would take me to use an air-compressor to throughly blow the lines out. You still need to use the anti-freeze to treat the traps anyway.

Also, in using either method remember to drain the water heater and bypass the water input and output lines to the water heater.

In the spring, I fill my fresh water tank with clean water and pump the anti-freeze out of all the water lines, faucets and floor drains until the water runs clear and I have never detected a bad taste caused by the pink stuff being in the lines over the winter.

[gwb36]

I also think anti-freeze is better. I blew out the lines, waited a week and blew again. Both times only mist came out. I then used anti-freeze and from both faucets almost a cup of water came out before it turned pink. The water may have been in the pump line which probably is not expelled by blowing.

[Mike Jean Bandfield]

...I didn't want to use the "pink stuff" because it was hard to flush thoroughly in the spring. The last three years, I've used anti-freeze. I don't know if the formulation is better or what, but it seems to flush immediately now. Roger

We generally quit using the pink stuff over 10 years ago because back then you'd have to literally run 50 gallons of water thru the lines to get rid of the foul taste.

The last couple of years we made winter side trips to the mountains and we winterized with antifreeze and dry camped a few days before coming back down. (No on board compressor.) I was surprised - it did rinse out quite easily - much better than it used to.

But the easier rinsing isn't nearly enough compensation to get me to switch back. Blowing out the lines is still easier, cheaper and faster than pumping antifreeze thru them.

The only pipe I've had break in all these years was the shower drain in the BF last year (-10 degrees with antifreeze in it!) The fact is both methods work fine and neither is very difficult. I'm sure some folks may be more comfortable with one than another but I believe Bill is too closed minded on this one. Maybe if he had to winterize every month or two he'd change his tune a bit.

Mike