Winter use

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skimadre
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Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2007 8:13 pm

Winter use

Post by skimadre »

We are thinking about staying at a KOA in Montana (this one is open year-round) during Thanksgiving. Temps could be in the 20's at night, probably above freezing during the day. What do we need to think/worry about to ensure no water freeze-up? The campground says several people do stay all winter; they use heat tapes on their outside water line and the campground has insulation for the water source. Does anyone have experience with these conditions?
Fred and Connie
2003 Born Free 26' RB
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whemme
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Avoiding freeze ups during winter use of your BF coach!

Post by whemme »

I can tell you that the Born Free coach is really only intended for 3-season usage (not 4-season) up here in the North country. I have a 2002 Born Free 26' RSB coach and I froze up a water line one evening two years ago in mid-March on my way home from Las Vegas staying overnight along I-40 at a Walmart in Gallop, NM. The water line that froze that night was a hot water line to the shower faucet located in the left rear corner of my coach. Both the cold and hot water lines that run to the shower are located in the outside wall of the coach and there is no way to keep those lines warm unless you were to wrap them with AC powered heat tape. In my case, I was dry camping at Walmart so did not have access to shore line power even if I had had the lines wrapped with heat tape.

I was lucky that the line did not freeze hard enough to burst the line and cause a water leak in the exterior wall of the coach. The frozen line was thawed that morning by placing my wife's hair dryer into the outside wall area behind the shower thru the rear access cover in front of the aluminum ladder. I used a 25' extension cord run to one of the outside AC outlets and used the Onan generator to power the hair dryer for approximately 1/2 hour to unfreeze that water line.

The fresh water tank in a Born Free is well protected from freezing since it is located inside the coach generally under the kitchen sink area and should not be a problem as long as the interior of the coach is kept above freezing. If it were particularly cold out, it would help the fresh water tank from freezing if the doors under that sink were left open to allow the warm interior air to reach that tank. The black and gray water tanks and associated plumbing and valves are totally unprotected being located outside the coach and under the rear portion of the coach exposed directly to the outside air temperatures. The only way to protect these two tanks during freezing weather is to either keep them drained or to pour sufficient antifreeze solution into them to prevent freezing.

That leaves the water line freezing issue. Some of the water lines can be protected to some degree by keeping all the lower cabinet doors open to permit the circulation of interior warm air to reach them. However, some of the water lines are located in the exterior walls of the coach such as those behind the outside facing walls of the shower and there is no way for interior warm air to reach those lines to prevent freezing. Other water lines and faucets likely to freeze are those associated with your outside shower (if your coach is so equipped).

I think the best thing to do when using your coach in freezing weather conditions is understand were the freezing problems exist and use your ingenuity to prevent the problems as best you can. Remember however that a burst water line under pressure can cause a flooding in an exterior wall of your coach and cause water to get under your wood cabinets and carpeting. A potentially very expensive repair problem that you will want to avoid if at all possible.
Bill Hemme - Spencer, Iowa
E-mail: whemme@earthlink.net
2002 Born Free (Ford E-450 V10) 26' RSB
2016 VW Golf GTI - toad
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Roger H
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Post by Roger H »

I agree with Bill. I use and have used a number of fiberglass RVs over the years all through the winter, usually in Spencer IA where Bill lives. About this time of year, I winterize with anti-freeze. I have a Thetford porta-potty that I use in the shower stall, and I use bottled water poured into a dish pan that can be emptied outside. I use the shower facilities inside my building.

Drain P-traps that hang below the coach as well as uninsulated holding tanks can also be problematic.

To get around this problem, my other coach is a 25' Bigfoot trailer which is actually designed for four-season camping with heated and insulated tanks and all of the plumbing run through heated spaces... but I store it inside over the winter so it's not available either <duh> long story, never mind... :roll:

Anyway, the other problem you'll have is keeping the tanks and pipes from freezing while going down the road. There's really no good way to accomplish that feat without winterizing.

Roger
'06 Born Free 32 RQ Kodiak Chassis
(Former: '01 Born Free 23 RK)
Dinghy: '16 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon with a Blue Ox Aladdin tow bar.
Traveling with Sir Winston and Lady Rae (Cavalier King Charles Spaniels)
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bechlumber
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Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2005 1:28 pm

Winter Travel

Post by bechlumber »

I have taken my 24' RB Born Free on many ski trips with temperatures sometimes below zero. I put some antifreeze in the holding tanks. I open the lower cabinet doors around any water lines to help keep them warm. I have stuffed some insulation behind the shower through the outside access door. At night I plug in a small heater and put it in the
shower to keep that area of the coach warm. During the day I drive the coach to the ski slopes and keep the furnance on at about 55 to 60. I have never had a problem with the pipes freezing.

I think the key is to keep the shower area warm at night.
2002 24' Rear Bath 4x4 7.3 Diesel
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bcope01
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Post by bcope01 »

Jeff, although I haven't used my BFT in below freezing temperatures yet, that has been my experience with run-of-the-mill travel trailers in the past on ski trips to the Sierras. The key is to keep as much of the inside of the coach as possible warm 24 hours a day. Open up the areas that don't normally get heated. Open access panels and keep all interior doors open, use fans to circulate the warm air into tight spots, etc.

Bill
Barb & Bill
2004 Born Free 22' Built for Two (Sold)
no longer towing a 2008 Smart ForTwo

Escondido, CA
iowaride
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Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2006 5:35 pm

Re: Winter Travel

Post by iowaride »

[quote="bechlumber"] At night I plug in a small heater and put it in the
shower to keep that area of the coach warm.

Jeff, how do you power the heater in the shower? I have seen your post with this information in the past when it came up. Is there a year round campground with electrical, or are you running the generator non-stop? We have flown in, using hotels in Tahoe as home-base and rental cars to get around to ski the various areas. Would appreciate your input on winter camping sites in the area so that we can use the Born Free.

Sharon Harrington
east coast of Iowa
2002 24' RB 7.3 Powerstroke
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bechlumber
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Winter Use

Post by bechlumber »

Bill, I agree with everything you said. Sharon, I stay at the Mammoth RV park in Mammoth Lakes. It has electrical hookups in the winter but no water or sewer. You can dump and fill your water if you have to at a dump station in the park. It also has showers and heated indoor swimming pool and spa pool. I do not know if there is any rv park in the Tahoe area open in the winter. In Breckenridge, Colorado the Tiger Run RV Park is open all winter. You can even hookup to the water. Tiger Run RV Park is where a Born Free Rally is being held in September 2008.

Jeff
2002 24' Rear Bath 4x4 7.3 Diesel
Covfam

Post by Covfam »

When I was at the factery in October I got to see alot of 08's being built .. they are much better winter ready. They have a new insulation guard that DOUBLES (yes thats correct) the R value of their insulation and their water lines are a lil more protected for cold weather in the floor.

Now don't get me wrong I have no experience with it but reading more about it. Born Free isn't whistling dixie, that insulation guard does quite literally double the R factor of your coach.

I know it doesn't help one bit with previous models but figured id let ya know about that new change to the coaches :)

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BornFree_n_Now
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Antifreeze Mix Ratio

Post by BornFree_n_Now »

We will be traveling to an area which may have nighttime temperatures in the low 20’s, with this in mind, we have already wrapped pipes behind the shower and stuffed insulation where we can. We are also planning on having a heat source in the shower, and placing antifreeze in the holding tanks, and since we have, as yet, to purchase the latter, we are curious as to how much of same is suggested to be added to the tanks to protect to the level referenced (I am sure it will say on the bottle, but thought someone may have a ballpark idea).
Larry & Sharon
2002 26' RSB
Suzuki X90 4x4 Toad
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whemme
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Antifreeze Mix Ratio

Post by whemme »

Larry & Sharon,

It would be nice if you could use regular automotive type antifreeze to protect your holding tanks but I believe it would be illegal to do that if you intend to dump those tanks later into a sewer system. A 50% antifreeze/50% water solution is protected from freezing to -40 degrees F. A 25%/75% mix would protect to approximately -4 degrees F I believe. A 10%/90% mix would protect to approximately +18 degrees F. What this means is if you poured 1 gallon of automotive antifreeze in each of your black and gray tanks, you should have only 9 gallons of water in those tanks if you want freezing protection down to +18 degree F. I guess I don't know where you could legally dump your tanks that contain this type of toxic antifreeze.

Now on the 1 gallon containers of non-toxic pink RV antifreeze it states that you should not mix it - that is, it should be 100% pink antifreeze in order for it protect from freezing down to -50 degrees F. So to provide the same level of freezing protection, you would need to treat you holding tanks with approximately double the amount of pink antifreeze compared to the automotive type antifreeze. However, the pink antifireeze is non-toxic so it can be safely drained out into sewer systems.
Bill Hemme - Spencer, Iowa
E-mail: whemme@earthlink.net
2002 Born Free (Ford E-450 V10) 26' RSB
2016 VW Golf GTI - toad
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bcope01
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Post by bcope01 »

There are lots of "non-toxic" antifreeze products available. Just google "non-toxic antifreeze" to find them. According to one maker (Amsoil) (http://www.oil-tech.com/antifreeze.htm): "conventional antifreeze is made with ethylene glycol based products and is highly toxic, but antifreeze made with propylene glycol is of low toxicity, is biodegradable and requires no special disposal procedures, and above all presents no threats to children, pets or wildlife."

Perhaps one of these propylene-based products would work well in RV holding tanks.

Bill
Barb & Bill
2004 Born Free 22' Built for Two (Sold)
no longer towing a 2008 Smart ForTwo

Escondido, CA
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BornFree_n_Now
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Antifreeze mix ratio

Post by BornFree_n_Now »

Bill,

Thank you for the information ~~ looks like we will need a trailer to carry an adequate supply :>(
Larry & Sharon
2002 26' RSB
Suzuki X90 4x4 Toad
skimadre
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2007 8:13 pm

Winter use

Post by skimadre »

Thanks to everyone for the helpful responses. We now have a good understanding of what might be possible and those areas we need to be careful to protect. The factory rep told me the area between the shower wall and the fiberglass RV shell is insulated, but I can't see any insulation in that area. Does anyone know if our 2003RB is actually insulated in the shower area? It seems that is the most difficult area to protect from freezing. Protecting the drain traps and holding tanks should not be difficult. One more question: is it possible to simply leave the antifreeze in some of the lines (e.g., the outside shower line and) and only pressurize the lines we want to use? Thanks again for the responses
Fred and Connie
2003 Born Free 26' RB
skimadre
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2007 8:13 pm

Winter use

Post by skimadre »

Double post of above deleted by bfadmin!
Fred and Connie
2003 Born Free 26' RB
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whemme
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Winter use

Post by whemme »

Fred and Connie,

I know my 2002 BF 26' RSB coach does not have any insulation in the rear of the coach between the outer fiberglass wall and the outside walls of the shower. That area probably is insulated in the 2008 models but I don't think it is in 2007 and earlier models.

And the answer to your following question is no: One more question: is it possible to simply leave the antifreeze in some of the lines (e.g., the outside shower line and) and only pressurize the lines we want to use?

The Born Free's water lines are all interconnected with no bypass values (except for the water heater input and output lines) so there is no way to isolate various lines and use only some of the lines in the winter and keep pink antifreeze in other isolated and unused water lines.
Bill Hemme - Spencer, Iowa
E-mail: whemme@earthlink.net
2002 Born Free (Ford E-450 V10) 26' RSB
2016 VW Golf GTI - toad
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