Motor oil

[binsjohn]

I asked my mechanic about changing over to synthetic oil. I had about 40k miles at the time. He strongly recommended that I not change. He said that if I had switched over at lower miles and continued with synthetic it would have been OK, but in his experience to do so at 40k was asking for leaking problems.

The issue with leaky seals caused by synthetic oil came up when it was first on the market. At that time a few European car companies used seals that were susceptible to early wear and synthetic oil made it worse. Soon after, however, those manufacturers were forced by the competition to improve their product and there have been no leak problems that I am aware of that can be traced to the use of synthetic lubricants.

Unfortunately, the fear has survived and I have heard it several times from otherwise competent mechanics. It simply is no longer true and hasn't been for decades.

Another problem is that many mechanics and other people in the automotive business do not really know the facts about lubricants, but will answer questions from consumers as though they were authorities on an issue. It is only human nature to want to be looked on as an expert in one's field, but all too often inaccurate information is given. The result, in this case, is that many people will not reap the considerable benefits of synthetic lubricants simply because they didn't take the trouble to research the matter.

If you'd like more information, here's a link to get your investigation started. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_ ... l#See_also

Personally, I have been using synthetic lubricants in all my cars, trucks, motorcycles and boats since 1979 when Amsoil first introduced them to the market. My results, in every case, have been positive with no problems of any kind. Meanwhile, there has been a measurable increase if fuel mileage (gas and diesel) that easily offsets the higher price of the oil.

[bill crommett]

As long as I started this controversy I guess it is up to me to carry it a little further.
binsjohn, You have put forth a strong case with considerable back-up facts as well as experience. But in my research I find a plethora of different chemical formulas being called "SYNTHETIC LUBE ". Because of this difference in formulae there must be some middle ground to which all synthetics can hold sacred. Now, if there really is a difference in the chemical formula of one synthetic as apposed to another, there has to be some research that proclaims one is better than the other. Thus it would follow that some synthetic users would be getting short-changed -- if only slightly.

[binsjohn]

As long as I started this controversy I guess it is up to me to carry it a little further.
binsjohn, You have put forth a strong case with considerable back-up facts as well as experience. But in my research I find a plethora of different chemical formulas being called "SYNTHETIC LUBE ". Because of this difference in formulae there must be some middle ground to which all synthetics can hold sacred. Now, if there really is a difference in the chemical formula of one synthetic as apposed to another, there has to be some research that proclaims one is better than the other. Thus it would follow that some synthetic users would be getting short-changed -- if only slightly.

Bill, no doubt you are quite right about the unfairness of the situation. The upshot is that you will not go wrong with any of the majors, Amsoil, Mobil 1, etc. All the independent testing I have seen has shown Amsoil to be the best by a significant margin, though it takes a more determined user to find it. They have a private dealer network and it's rarely found in retail stores. Mobil 1 is my second choice but you can find it in so many places.

If you choose to pursue Amsoil you can buy direct at wholesale pricing for a small "preferred customer" fee or get contact info on your nearest dealer on Amsoil's web site. I buy a case (12 qts) and a few of their oil filters and it lasts me a very long time since oil changes are done so infrequently. They also sell the lab testing kits for about $15 each. I like them because they take the guesswork and worry out of going long distances between changes.

When I get lazy or just can't resist the urge to do an oil change when I'm out of Amsoil, I trot down to Wal-Mart (I know, I know) and get some Mobil 1. Also, they are completely compatible, so you can use Mobil 1 to top up if you're out of Amsoil and don't have time to place an order.

John

[Dallas Baillio]

Occasionally I make an off-the-wall or devil's advocate post. Time for one now. It seems to me that with all the things I have to keep up with on a day-to-day basis, I don't need the added complication of having my oil tested by a lab. It may be fine for you, but for me I like to keep things simple. I buy oil and a filter at Wal-Mart (a good grade filter and any 5-30 oil that may be on sale) and change the oil myself at 5,000 mile intervals. Cost less than $25 and it is over and done with. I record the mileage on a post it note, attach it to the windshield, and go on to other things.

[Robert D. Grant]

I totally agree with Dallas on this and I follow basically the same regimen. The claimed benefits are simply not worth the added cost and aggravation. I am extremely skeptical about the claims of improved fuel economy.

[Mel Wilbur]

Bill,

As I stated at the start of this subject, it is a matter of personal preference as shown by the responses. It comes down to which lubrication method you choose will, by past experiences noted, work well in our engines, transmissions etc.

[bill crommett]

A question: If a filter will pull all the carbon and other detritus out of the synthetic lube, why wouldn't a filter do the same for petroleum lube ?

Another question: When oil (either kind ) wears out, what is it that wears out ?

[whemme]

I have chosen to stay with petroleum based oil in my Born Free coach mainly because of a exhaustive study done several years ago comparing petroleum based oil and synthetic oil in aircraft reciprocating engines. What this study found was one area of concern where synthetics were at a disadvantage over petroleum oil when the engine was not run for extended periods of time - like when your motorcoach may be in storage for 2 or 3 months at a time.

Synthetic based oil will drip dry off of internal engine components after a period of 2 to 3 weeks leaving those metal parts such as cam lifter surfaces not covered with an oil film any longer causing these surfaces to start to rust.

Also, when starting an engine that has sat unrun for an extended time period means that the metal wear surfaces have no protective oil film during this initial startup period - also not a good thought.

It was found that petroleum based oils protect internal metal surfaces for approximately twice as long as synthetics before the protective oil film is lost. Other than this problem, synthetics probably perform in other respects as least as good if not better than petroleum based oils.

My BF coach stays in storage for extended periods of time so I have chosen to stay with petroleum based oil as I have with my airplane engine.

[bill crommett]

I haven't stuck my finger in a hornets nest in a long time. !!

Where does the truth lie ?

[Mike Jean Bandfield]

Sam & Bill,

There definitely are legitimate reasons to keep 2 maintenance schedules for oil changes; one for hours/miles of operation and the other is for the length of time (in months or seasons) the oil has remained in the engine.

The first schedule is determined by the amount of particles (i. e., worn metals and carbon from combustion that bypasses the piston rings) carried in the oil. Ever wonder why your diesel holds twice as much oil as your gas engine of the same size? It is because the diesel leaves so much more contaminates in the oil. The filter only catches particles down to a certain size. The small particles wears less - but not zero as some claim so twice the particles = twice the wear and doubling the volume of oil = 1/2 the wear.

The second schedule is required due to the degradation to the oil's additives and the accumulation of acids in the oil. Moisture from condensation and the atmosphere is routinely drawn into the combustion chamber and combines with elements in the fuel and oil and altered in the combustion process to create acids which can cause oxidation and corrosion to engine parts. Some of the additives neutralize these acids but they have a finite capacity. Engines that are run for less than 10 miles at a time never warm to point where moisture is boiled off, blow-by is increased until engine parts expand to their operating tolerances, and they build acids faster that engines driven for longer periods. Once the engine accumulates sufficient acids your it will degrade while just sitting in the driveway.

Spectrographic oil analysis procedures (in the Air Force it was called the SOAP machine) can be used to measure the accumulation of metals and oxides from wear and corrosion. You can get SOAP lab reports from labs on your engine oils. I would recommend using a lab that does analysis for aircraft engines. By doing this yourself you will be able to control the variables and see for yourself how brands of oil, type of filter, type of driving and time between changes affects the particles collected.

Sam, failure to properly maintain an engine does not result in an immediate catastrophic failure. I have a friend from India who overheard me speaking about oil changes one day. He caught me later and confessed he knew nothing about cars and had been driving his Toyota Corolla for 2 years and 30000 miles and had never checked - much less changed the oil. The oil light had not come on yet so it still had oil pressure but it had lost compression due to ring wear. At this point he started doing routine maintenance which required him to start adding a quart every 2000 miles. This friend (a well educated electronics engineer - highly technical in his field) was very embarassed to admit his ignorance of cars. BTW, he rebuilt his Corolla engine @ 115000 miles. I suspect the reason you don't hear about engine failures has more to do with human nature than the nature of engines. You probably know someone who was very lax about maintenance but its not likely you'll hear the truth about the reason the engine failed. My neighbor's Chrysler got a new engine. He said it was a "warranty repair". My son's friend did the engine change out and he said the oil drain plug was stuck and the head rounded off to where you could no longer get a visegrips on it! The bill for the "warranty repair" was $3500.

The questions that arise in all the water cooler, bar and web debates are never really answered definitively. Which brand of ...oil? ...filter? ...additives? ...for my engine? ...for my usage profile? You can't just take the word of the people who sell oil or those who mfr vehicles. Nor would I trust a multi-level marketing company who contracts oil and additives and resells them through whomever. You can spend the time and money getting the oil analysis and charting the results. ...or take a swag. If you are doing the latter, make darn sure you are staying within the manufacturer's recommended schedule. Since the manufacturer makes money when your vehicle wears out - not when you buy oil - then you've got a big clue! Once you begin to notice oil consumption or telltale blue smoke the damage is done and you'll start spending all that money saved in oil changes on fuel, parts and labor.

[John S.]

Ok I will step into this. I have a few different rigs. I will say that Allison Transmission switched to synthetic from the factory standard in all new allison transmission. I know it runs cooler and they extended the drain and change interval. I have also seen Royal Purple in Diesel engines. Again it is extended drain. You do have to change the filters. It does make a difference. Now on the BF I do not put enough miles on it to make it a priority but it is not a big expense and I put in synthetic when new. It will still be changed once a year that way and I do not have to worry. I know from the big trucks engines and generator that it does make a difference over many many hours but it is hard to truly justify in lower mileage and use applications.

[Mike Astley]

As an interesting slant on all of this..when I had a Ford dealer oil change before our trip, they initially suggested synthetic which I declined. Their next suggestion was a mix blend of sythetic and natural oil. Seemed like a solution for those who don't know or can't decide which is best. Being in the thoroughly confused camp, I accepted that option.

[Robert D. Grant]

Well Mike, the way I look at it, they made only half the money that they hoped to make off of you.

[dsfriday]

For those of you who are using synthetic and extened oil change intervals (5,000 miles and above) are you finding the need the add oil between changes. Recently returned from a 2 month tour of the south, traveled about 6,000 miles and I started to use Mobil 1 at 9,700 miles (drained old oil at 9,700 and replaced with Mobil 1 before leaving on trip). Our 2008 BFT now has 15,700 on it. Intially, at the begining of our trip, I checked the dipstick periodically and each time the level was at the full mark. Had intended to change the oil after about 4,000 miles but never found the time and also in the back of my mind said why bother when with synthetic everyone says you can run up tp 15,000 miles before changing oil. So decided to wait unitl we returned home at which time I would have covered about 6,000 miles since the last oil change. At our last stop south of St. Louis, the next morning thought I had better check the dipstick before completing the last 300 miles home. Somewhat concerned when I found the oil level was right on the add oil mark when earlier in the trip each time I checked the level it was at the full mark. However, 1 Qt. of oil consumption in 6,000 miles I don't find out of line, its just that it appears the oil consumption was greater after the first 4,000 mile mark than before 4,000, meaning that in reality the oil is beiging to break down at the 4,000 mark. Words of wisdom please.

[Roger H]

IIRC, I think Ford considers up to a quart of consumption "normal" between factory recommended oil changes, regardless of whether it's synthetic or dino oils.

A quart in 6k miles isn't a problem. My coach generally doesn't use any oil, but towing our 25' Bigfoot travel trailer 3500 miles with it in the heat of the summer last summer used a quart over the course of the trip. Oil consumption is directly related to the ambient temperatures and how hard the engine has to work.

Roger