Born Free Leap'n Lions RV Club

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 2:31 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 6:55 pm
Posts: 1294
Location: Escondido. CA
Hi Bill:

I suggested a poll because it has advantages over individual postings. It consolidates the responses, and allows both affirmative and negative responses. It may shed some light on whether the problem is systemic or isolated.

A sample poll question would be: Are you experiencing this problem? Selections: Y/N
Next question would be: Year of coach? Selections: 2007 or Newer/2006 or Older

From the forum FAQ pages:

http://www.bornfreervclub.org/bulletin_board/faq.php#17

"How do I create a poll?
Creating a poll is easy -- when you post a new topic (or edit the first post of a topic, if you have permission) you should see a Add Poll form below the main posting box. If you cannot see this then you probably do not have rights to create polls. You should enter a title for the poll and then at least two options -- to set an option type in the poll question and click the Add option button. You can also set a time limit for the poll, 0 being an infinite amount. There will be a limit to the number of options you can list, which is set by the board administrator"


Apparently, even though we are registered and signed in, site admin hasn't given us the option (rights) to create polls.

Just a suggestion. :D

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Barb & Bill
2004 Born Free 22' Built for Two (Sold)
no longer towing a 2008 Smart ForTwo

Escondido, CA


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:52 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2005 8:05 pm
Posts: 1997
Location: Spencer, IA
This post is directed mostly to Peter Robinson but also to others that may have this problem:

Your problem is not the same as the cut out problem as now analyzed by Parallax and Generac recently at the Born Free factory. In the cut out problem traced to the Parallax mechanical ATS (automatic transfer switch) what actually is happening is this: When the air-conditioner compressor kicks on, that sudden load increase causes enough of a momentary voltage drop in the output of the Generac that the relay in the mechanical ATS drops out disconnecting the Generac completely from the AC power buss in the coach. These ATS switches have a built-in 20 to 30 second delay before they will engage again and when they do, the AC buss is reconnected to the generator output and the air-conditioner will restart. This problem is kind of intermittent and therefore does not occur every time nor did it occur in every coach produced since some time in 2007 with the mechanical ATS and Generac generator.

In Peter's case he states the following: "The AC cuts out and the generator slows way down and stalls almost quitting and then limps along." That is not the same problem because when the ATS cuts out it completely unloads the Generac generator. In this case with the Generac slowing way down and almost stalling, the connection between the AC power buss and the Generac is being maintained by the ATS. The problem in this case is an overload of the Generac (loading it with a load that exceeds 3600 watts) or the Generac itself has some kind of problem and can't sustain a load up to its maximum of 3600 watts. I believe the air-conditioner used in the Born Free coaches draw on the order of 2500 watts when on the highest settings.

Are you running other AC powered items in your coach at the same time as your air-conditioner such as your microwave oven when your problem occurs? You should have a qualified generator tech check the output capacity of your Generac to analyze your particular problem, assuming you are not overloading it.

My 2002 26' RSB coach is equipped with the 4000 watt Onan generator. I know from experience that I can overload my Onan and it generally happens this way. In the morning, we may be running the air-conditioning and also making breakfast using the microwave. Then without thinking, either my wife will turn on her hair dryer or I may start the toaster and the Onan suddenly protests this excessive load and, within 5 seconds or so, the 30-amp overload circuit breaker will open on the Onan.

So, Born Free has addressed this Parallax ATS/Generac issue and Parallax will replace the mechanical ATS with an electronic ATS under warranty for those coaches still under the factory 3 year warranty which should cover all coaches that may experience this ATS cut out problem.

So, others out there that may think they have this problem, make sure the problem you are experiencing is identical to what is described above before bad mouthing Born Free about it. If it is, then following the instructions posted by Mel Wilbur on September 23rd and your problem will be taken care of.

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Bill Hemme - Spencer, Iowa
E-mail: whemme@earthlink.net
2002 Born Free (Ford E-450 V10) 26' RSB
2016 VW Golf GTI - toad


Last edited by whemme on Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 5:29 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:38 pm
Posts: 90
Location: Pacific Grove, California
Bill Hemme, I will certainly will run a test to attempt to determine if my problem is the 30 second drop out problem as I believe it is or a different problem as you suggest and get back to this thread. I do know there were no other draws on the AC as we were in a high temperature day in the middle of the Country and only attempting to cool the coach when first experiencing this problem on our delivery trip home this past June but it seems further testing is needed as you suggest. We Coastal Central Californians may not be the most expert on AC as a lot of heat just isn't allowed here. Just kidding! I do not understand the "bad mouthing Born Free" comment however as this was hardly the case and certainly I wish BF nothing but the best having met several personnel personally and visited and toured the factory. I have enough experience with motor homes and MH travel to realize what a good product they produce, however when you have a systems function problem that reoccurs on several coaches as this one seems to have done in some form it calls the design of that system into question and this is potentially a coach system design problem. It may be a good idea to find out just how many coaches have this problem and in what form it shows up. I did not understand from anything on this thread or my call to BF that the problem applied only to new coaches or was even necessarily a component failure problem but could be more due to the wrong type of component matching in the generation system. Undersizing the match between the generator and the AC so as to cause a common stalling problem during common usage would also be a system problem wouldn't it? Mel Wilbur's post as to what to do about the problem explained that Parallax/BF would provide assistance to coaches still under warantee. My post is concerned with those that are not, like our own, and any support for that situation such as a kit and instructions offered to fix it, free or not. As to any bad mouthing of BF, I don't understand, perhaps there is something going on that I do not understand here regarding discussing this.

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Peter Robinson
2011 BF 22'


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:23 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2005 8:05 pm
Posts: 1997
Location: Spencer, IA
Peter Robinson,

I have edited my earlier post above and re-worded the last paragraph to reflect what I really meant to say which was not to accuse you of bad mouthing Born Free. My point is that all of the appliances in any brand motorcoach including those built by Born Free are covered by a warranty issued by the appliance manufacturer and not by the manufacturer of the coach itself.

The tone of some of the posts here appear to blame Born Free for this problem when they did not manufacturer either the ATS, the generator, or the air-conditioner. This warranty situation is different than the automotive industry where the car manufacturer covers the whole car and everything in it.

Some may feel that a motorcoach manufacturer should throughly test all installed appliances as part of the design process to make sure they are compatible and work together properly. I would guess that most manufacturers try to do this to a reasonable extent but as this intermittent ATS cut out problem shows, a problem can slip by and only becomes apparent later down the road. To their credit, Born Free called in both Parallax and Generec to the factory to analyze the problem and the solution is replacement of the ATS by Parallax under their warranty.

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Bill Hemme - Spencer, Iowa
E-mail: whemme@earthlink.net
2002 Born Free (Ford E-450 V10) 26' RSB
2016 VW Golf GTI - toad


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:19 am 
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Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:01 pm
Posts: 416
Location: Powhatan, Virginia
I am happy that Bornfree worked to get it fixed. I did some research on the issue though and it looks as though the paperwork i got with my coach shows the parrallex has a powershed function and it is too low for our coaches. It says 18 amps and at startup many of us will take more than 18 amps on some of our appliances.

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2015 Royal Splendor on Ford 550 none slide version
Former owner 2007 24foot rear bath painted and 2006 22 foot built for two
Former owner 1994 34 foot 2000 36 foot and 2001 42 foot FORETRAVEL's.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 5:40 pm 
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Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2009 7:04 pm
Posts: 10
Location: Port Orange, FL
I started this thread so I thougt I shoud report what has happened. I was probably most vocal about this issue and did challenge Born Free for a fix. Kim Olson agreed to pay for all testing by an independent generator repair facility and he did work directly with that facility (Advance Generator Service in Daytona Beach, FL). Based on their findings and that of Born Free we replaced the Parallax transfer switch with the new electronic model.

I live in Daytona Beach and put the unit to test this afternoon. Outside temperature was 90, I ran the generator with airconditioneer on for 3 hours at 76 degrees. Airconditioneer cycled approximately every 15 minutes, I am happy to report no failures.

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22 cab over rear door, no decals


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 Post subject: Generac/AC Problem
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 7:43 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:38 pm
Posts: 90
Location: Pacific Grove, California
Dennis, Glad to hear you got your problem fixed with support. I assume your BF is quite new and under warantee. Is that correct?

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Peter Robinson
2011 BF 22'


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 8:08 pm 
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Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2009 7:04 pm
Posts: 10
Location: Port Orange, FL
Peter,
that is correct 2009 RD Cabover

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22 cab over rear door, no decals


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 10:18 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:01 pm
Posts: 416
Location: Powhatan, Virginia
Dennis Park wrote:
I started this thread so I thougt I shoud report what has happened. I was probably most vocal about this issue and did challenge Born Free for a fix. Kim Olson agreed to pay for all testing by an independent generator repair facility and he did work directly with that facility (Advance Generator Service in Daytona Beach, FL). Based on their findings and that of Born Free we replaced the Parallax transfer switch with the new electronic model.

I live in Daytona Beach and put the unit to test this afternoon. Outside temperature was 90, I ran the generator with airconditioneer on for 3 hours at 76 degrees. Airconditioneer cycled approximately every 15 minutes, I am happy to report no failures.


That is great news.

_________________
2015 Royal Splendor on Ford 550 none slide version
Former owner 2007 24foot rear bath painted and 2006 22 foot built for two
Former owner 1994 34 foot 2000 36 foot and 2001 42 foot FORETRAVEL's.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 9:51 am 
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Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:01 pm
Posts: 416
Location: Powhatan, Virginia
Well, I had installed the new transfer switch. Will be taking the coach out today to a wedding and I will get to see how it works and I will let you all know.

_________________
2015 Royal Splendor on Ford 550 none slide version
Former owner 2007 24foot rear bath painted and 2006 22 foot built for two
Former owner 1994 34 foot 2000 36 foot and 2001 42 foot FORETRAVEL's.


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