Batteries

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Fourwinds
Posts: 61
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:29 am

Batteries

Post by Fourwinds »

Hey new friends,

My Amish saying: "The more progress(?) I make the 'confusider' I get."
Part 2: "The more 'confusider' I get the more questions I have."

Bonnie and I have been searching the manual and a few other RV books given us by the previous owner of our BF, but cannot figure out 1) what is best to do? and 2) why things are the way they are? and 3) what to do about it?

History: After arriving home, I plugged the BF into an outlet in our garage I "think" is 15 amp (no way of telling). The On/Off battery switch by driver's seat was "On." I don't know if battery water was tested before we left Texas with our rig or not. SIDE BAR: [I have had a 30 amp line run to the back of the house to use in the future, as soon as gate with lock is finished next week.] Now the rig sits in our drive.

I woke up one pre-dawn morning in a panic. What if I am cooking the batteries! [They are two + years old. Die Hard]. In checking the batteries nearly every cell was dry. Bonnie helped me fill all 12 cells and it took about a gallon. We went inside and flipped on the light switch. It worked. Someone told me I need to leave the lights on for about 4 hours and then take a reading. I bought a battery tester but have not used it yet. Plan on that today.

Adjacent question re: frig. We've been told, leave frig running. They do best if ran year round. just set on 1. Then others say, turn frig off and open doors. We opted to leave it on.

Workers running a welder to make the aluminum fence tripped the circuit breaker for the garage while the RV was still plugged in. (I know...now! I should have turned off the frig and unplugged the RV shore line first.)
After that the frig has been doing strange things. It beeps and flashes
what looks to me like "AC ... no" I set it on propane. It will not run with the "On/Off" battery circular switch by driver's seat is in "Off".

I checked power board (?) and all breakers remain in "on" position. I don't know if any fuses were burned or not. Can you tell without pulling each one and visually looking at it? (Do colors of fuses have significance?)

With shore line plugged and Battery switch "On" I plugged in a vacuum inside the BF but it would not work. The amp reading device given me by owner is blank. No read out showing at all.

I will attempt to test the batteries with the tester I bought. But I'm thinking these batteries have bit the dust. I will replace them with batteries wired in series (as has been explained to me - although I still don't understand what difference occurs inside the batteries when one is hooked up to negative from coach, and the other to the positive from the coach, then another line connecting the other side of the batteries to make one 12 volt. To me 6 + 6 = 12. But I'm told not when they are wired in-line; only when wired in "series."

We are TOTALLY confused, "and rattled!!!" over the subject and question of whether to keep a 30 amp or even 15 amp shore line plugged into the RV constantly? And just take a reading of the batteries monthly, as I read someplace. Or let them sit for a few months without being plugged in.

A man at Camping World told me that if I buy the "golf cart-type" batteries and wire in series, I'd need to buy a 10 to 12 Amp battery charger prefereably with "De calcification" feature to charge them. That the alternator of the Ford chassis will not do the job.

To recap, if I can:

1) Should frig's be left running constantly when parked or not?
2) Should Battery switch be kept "On" or "Off" ?
3) If Battery switch is turned "off" should the shore line be kept plugged in? It doesn't do any good then, does it? Or can you get A/C power to use in the coach with the battery switch set to "Off"?
4) Should shore line be plugged in 24 X 7, all year long? :oops:

Sitting on ground by coach with hands holding head, mumbling "Eye - yie - yiee!"...... Jess
Jess & Bonnie Dixon
2002 Born Free, 26 ft rsb
bill crommett

Post by bill crommett »

Jess: There will be more responses than mine, but I will try to give you a couple of brief fundamentals.
The battery switch only disconnects the coach batteries from the whole system. If the shore power is plugged in and the switch is off, everything is going directly from the shore power to the converter and on to the 12 volt system while bypassing the batteries.
If the battery switch is ON then the shore power is trying to recharge the batteries, or over-charge them unless you have a SMART charger/converter that will eliminate overcharging.
If the battery switch is off, the refrigerator will not run even on propane unless the shore power is plugged in and active. The refridgerator needs a small amount of 12 v current to activate the refridgerator controls. Thus, if the shore power is OFF then the Battery switch must be ON to work the fridge.
The common concensus is that when you return home from a trip, the batteries WILL be charged up suffiently from the engine alternator so you can plug into the shore power and turn off your battery switch.. Just remember that any battery will slowly self-discharge over many weeks and will need to be recharged periodically while in dry storage.
Bill
Dave&JanPotter

Re: Batteries

Post by Dave&JanPotter »

Fourwinds wrote: Adjacent question re: frig. We've been told, leave frig running. They do best if ran year round. just set on 1. Then others say, turn frig off and open doors. We opted to leave it on.

Workers running a welder to make the aluminum fence tripped the circuit breaker for the garage while the RV was still plugged in. (I know...now! I should have turned off the frig and unplugged the RV shore line first.)
After that the frig has been doing strange things. It beeps and flashes
what looks to me like "AC ... no" I set it on propane. It will not run with the "On/Off" battery circular switch by driver's seat is in "Off".

I checked power board (?) and all breakers remain in "on" position. I don't know if any fuses were burned or not. Can you tell without pulling each one and visually looking at it? (Do colors of fuses have significance?)
No need to be discouraged Jess. It sounds like your refrigerator was just trying to reset itself. As Bill said, the refrigerator control circuit is run by 12v DC power. Propane provides the fuel for the burner, but you need 12 VDC to run the circuits which open the valve and ignite the propane and run all those lights on the panel. When the power went out and then you reset it, the refrigerator attempted to restart itself. Several things could have happened to give an alarm depending upon how you had it set up, but none of them should have been indicative of a major problem. On a related note, when you run the refigerator on propane and then switch to the electric mode, over time, the propane in the line between the tank and the refrigerator will slowly leak out. The next time you start the refer on propane, the valve opens and the line is full of air and it takes a while before the air gets purged from the line and the burner sees propane. There is a time delay in the control circuit that shuts mine off after about 40 seconds without sensing that the propane has ignited. I then must reset the unit and wait another 40 seconds to see if it lights. We shut the unit down each time we come back and turn off the propane. If we haven't been out for 2 weeks or so, it takes me 3 or 4 resetswhen I start my refer before my unit operates without needing to be reset each 40 seconds or so. Yours may differ some due to the length of the line on your rig and the tightness of the fittings but the principle is the same. Some people operate their units all the time and some shut theirs off between trips. If you run yours all the time, just be sure the unit is level. My Norcold unit is able to run for 2 hours out of level without causing internal damage. The damage occurs over time, is not immediately disabling but is cumulative and normally irreversible so I do pay attention to the "levelness" on my coach as the repair is costly.

As for the fuses, the color is indicative of the size which is usually marked on the fuse. I guess you might be abe to see if a fuse is blown without removing it, but my eyesight isn't that good. Something about old age.....You could get your digital multimeter out and see if there is continuity across the fuse terminals but I keep a cheap plastic fuse puller in the converter tray and just use it to pull the fuse and look at it when I need to check. Any auto parts store sells them for a buck or two.
Trisha

Post by Trisha »

So many good responses already.

When your frig flashes no AC, that's what it means.

12 V power allows it to: light the panel to tell you these things, runs the lights inside the frig and I think runs the temperature thingy. Can't remember the word at the moment. You know...regulates the temp.

If your frig is a 2-way, you can either choose AC, or LP or Auto. Auto will choose the propane if the AC gets cut, and choose the AC if the propane gets cut. Then it will only error out on you if BOTH aren't available.

Now, if it's saying No AC when you are plugged in, then check the fuse on the outlet you're plugged into first! Not inside the coach. Inside the garage or whatever. when those people blew your breaker, it may still be tripped (this has happened to me). It wasn't the breaker in the coach. It WAS a breaker the coach was plugged into outside.

Try looking for that.

I think you can buy plug-in meters that will tell you how much power you're pulling at a particular plug so you can find out if it is 15 or 20 amp. I will plug into 15 only as a totally last resort. It's just not enough to run things. I'd rather just use the generator at that point.

I do not leave my frig on when I'm going to be parked more than a week or so. I clean it out, leave the doors open.

The only time I've had problems lighting after an extensive time away....take this back, I've NEVER had this problem. The only time that my frig doesn't like to light is when it's above 8000 feet in altitude. Period. It won't.

I need to pursue this this week, as I have land in Colorado at 9,300 feet. (Which is how I know this.) And no electric outlet there.

So....I hope these things will help you. But I don't see any reason to use the frig or leave it on if you're not going to be using the rig. why waste the power? I just use it when I'm living in it or on vacation in it.

Clean it and use the latches to keep the door open...

Trish
User avatar
Mike Jean Bandfield
Posts: 513
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 3:43 pm

Re: Batteries

Post by Mike Jean Bandfield »

Fourwinds wrote:Hey new friends,

Adjacent question re: frig. We've been told, leave frig running. They do best if ran year round. just set on 1. Then others say, turn frig off and open doors. We opted to leave it on.
I'm with Trish on this one - why waste the power? When it's off you don't have to worry about it. I know there is a small pool of people who say leave it on but I don't see anything in the manual suggesting its necessary. Our RV, at 13 years old the refer was still working fine. I was turned off and the door left open when in storage.

(Do colors of fuses have significance?)


With shore line plugged and Battery switch "On" I plugged in a vacuum inside the BF but it would not work. The amp reading device given me by owner is blank. No read out showing at all.


The color of the auto fuse is an indication of its current rating.

The battery switch has no affect on AC power.

I'm reading between the lines here...
Assumed Conditions:
Your battery swith is "Off", your refer is flashing an error "no AC" and you have AC power at the shore power plug.

If this is correct, then you have AC power to the converter which is supplying 12Vdc to the refer that is showing you the error. The refer error and the vacuum cleaner are both telling you you have no AC in the coach. You indicated the AC breakers are not tripped but I'd bet you missed one. Check the Born Free's mains. Recheck and make sure you have power at the garage plug the coach is plugged into. (Notes: When an AC breaker trips it does not move all the way to the off position. It stays in a loose position in the middle. You must move it to "off" and then "on" to reset it. Also, if you have a 15-30 amp adapter plug - those things are notorious for passive failures.)

I'm very currious. What is this amp reading device you can plug in??? Can you provide a picture or device name and model? I don't think I've ever seen such a thing.


I will attempt to test the batteries with the tester I bought. But I'm thinking these batteries have bit the dust. I will replace them with batteries wired in series (as has been explained to me - although I still don't understand what difference occurs inside the batteries when one is hooked up to negative from coach, and the other to the positive from the coach, then another line connecting the other side of the batteries to make one 12 volt. To me 6 + 6 = 12. But I'm told not when they are wired in-line; only when wired in "series."

A gallon of water :?: I suspect your batteries are toast :!: They were already 2 years old... I'd have them replaced with 2ea 6VDC deep-cycle batteries wired in series. The 6V batteries will likely cost a little more than 2ea 12Vdc batteries wired in parallel but the 2 sixes in series is a more reliable configuration. Until you have worked with someone who can teach you these skills (hands on) and you become comfortable with your abilities I would recommend that you have the batteries replaced by a competent auto or RV mechanic.

Batteries of this size can be very dangerous. I'm usually the first to say you can't learn unless you try. But, please don't attempt to work on batteries until you fully understand the the dangers that exist from acid, explosive gasses, electrical burns, weights, and the consequences to equipment due to corrosive affects, applying wrong voltage, the extreme potential currents available and reverse polarity.

Once the mechanic has configured the batteries properly you can perform the routine maintenance on them. And, all you will need to know is that you have 6 volt batteries or 12v batteries that are wired to provide 12vdc to the coach.

We all have different skill levels. The trick is to learn what you can handle and what should be hired out. Many on this forum perform expert level maintenance and even expert level engineering on their coaches. You don't have to do this to enjoy RV'ing. Don't assume that RV'ing requires you to do everything that you see others doing. If you are not sure ask, ask what your options are given your skill level.

Please tell us more about the battery tester you purchased. Are you comfortable with its use and do you have a chart that allows you to interpret it's readings in context?

We are TOTALLY confused, "and rattled!!!" over the subject and question of whether to keep a 30 amp or even 15 amp shore line plugged into the RV constantly? And just take a reading of the batteries monthly, as I read someplace. Or let them sit for a few months without being plugged in.
There's no right or wrong here. It depends on what you want to do. How are you going to use your RV when at home. Most of us don't use the RV at home. We shut everything down, turn off the battery, and forget about it except to periodically check the water level and state of discharge.

Regarding 15A vs 30A service: If you want to turn on a lot of high power AC appliances like the air conditioner and the microwave at the same time you will need a 30A connection. a 15A connection is usually fine to power a small heater or the air conditioner along with the refrigerator and lights - but turn on the microwave or a high powered battery charger at the same time and it will trip the house/garage breaker. Remember the water analogy. Amps is flow and voltage is pressure. If you want to use a lot of power all at once you need a big pipe (30 amps). If you only use a little power a big pipe doesn't hurt anything however a little pipe (15 amp) is OK. Most of us can get by just fine with a 15 amp circuit for the RV in storage.
A man at Camping World told me that if I buy the "golf cart-type" batteries and wire in series, I'd need to buy a 10 to 12 Amp battery charger prefereably with "De calcification" feature to charge them. That the alternator of the Ford chassis will not do the job.
"Golf cart" or deep-cycle batteries is a good idea.

"...need to buy a 10-12 amp charger"???? I think you heard him wrong. And I think he heard you wrong - or didn't ask the right questions.

He likely heard you say you wanted to stay plugged in all the time. He doesn't know you have a battery disconnect switch so he's recommending a smart 3-stage charger so you don't fry your batteries. This would be an unusual requirement. Again, this depends on what you want to do (and how much money you have.) Don't do this until you understand your requirements better. For now, assume that your coach is adequately designed and configured to meet your basic requirements.

De-calcification????
He was probably refering to "de-sulphation". This is a still theoretical process that uses an intense high frequency pulse or fast ramp square wave pulse to force sulphates, which have precipitated out of the battery electrolyte, back into solution. The process is one which is still not fully understood by the scientists but the idea is to prolong battery life. A few engineers have shared their ideas about how to do this on the internet. And the debate continues as to whether routine pulsings work any better than a process of monitoring and equalization. And until they figure it out we don't need to know.

While the scientific debate continues, some marketeers have developed products around the theory. It's doubtful the products are smart enough yet to be fully effective and a reasonable ROI is doubtful. And, there are a few frauds out there with cool blinking lights on a shiny sealed boxes with lots of mumbo-jumbo sales and marketing slick talk designed to de-sulphate your wallet. :roll:
1) Should frig's be left running constantly when parked or not?
No
2) Should Battery switch be kept "On" or "Off" ?
OFF whenever you are connected to shore power or when the rig is not being used. The exception to this rule is when you need to charge the battery from shore power. A rough rule of thumb is to never leave the battery switch on while plugged into shore power for more than 24 hoours.
3) If Battery switch is turned "off" should the shore line be kept plugged in?
Only if you you are using the RV.
It doesn't do any good then, does it? Or can you get A/C power to use in the coach with the battery switch set to "Off"?
With the A/C power connected and the battery switch "Off" you will have both A/C power and 12Vdc power from your converter. Since the battery is disconnected it will not be charging.

Use the coach in this configuration when you are camping and have shore power available.
4) Should shore line be plugged in 24 X 7, all year long?
No.

A final note: We have to be very clear regarding the terms we are using here. The new terminolgy you are hearing has very specific meaning. Ask questions if you do not understand a term and take baby steps. You'll begin picking it up soon. There are a lot of good sites on the net that can help. For example:
http://bart.ccis.com/home/mnemeth/12volt/12volt.htm

Mike
Mike & Jean
2005 26' RSS Diesel
Trisha

Re: Batteries

Post by Trisha »

Mike & Jean Bandfield wrote:



I'm very currious. What is this amp reading device you can plug in??? Can you provide a picture or device name and model? I don't think I've ever seen such a thing.
I am the one who wrote this. I actually saw one plugged into someone's rig at the Wisconsin Rally last year, but I don't remember if it showed amps. It had a digital display. Seems to me one SHOULD be able to find one like that. If it hasn't been invented I'm going to hurry up and get to work.

there's this:
http://koa.com/updates/2003apr/wwwimake ... 3.cfm.html

or this:
http://www.donrowe.com/kill_a_watt/kill_a_watt.html

which I found on here: http://www.bestfitrecruiting.com/TestEquipment.htm'
Trisha

Post by Trisha »

One more thing....

If youput a whole gallon of water in that battery, you probably overfilled it. I've been there done that. (Learned the hard way).

Now I did not drain the extra out of my battery after it overbooiled, but it was still too full and they did at the factory. It was still overboiling slightly when I was plugged in without the override turned off.

Be very careful to not overfill your batteries! Battery acid overflow is a MESS deluxe. And it also changes the specific gravity in the cells by diluting it with all that water.

I suggest getting somone knowledgeable to walk you through it (handholding). I wish I had. It is an expensive lesson and a mess. Not to mention that it will probably lessen my batteries life.

Rather than being overwhelmed, come to Iowa to the rally and look one of us up and we can get a focus group together to help you walk through it. I'm sure many of us will be happy to help.

It is sometimes best to have someone help you, to show you, so you can then know. I am not suggesting something I have not wanted myself.

There are also "live on wheels" conferences and I'd higly recommend you look one up and sign up and learn! It will make things far richer for you.

Trish
User avatar
Mike Jean Bandfield
Posts: 513
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 3:43 pm

Re: Batteries

Post by Mike Jean Bandfield »

Trisha wrote:
Mike & Jean Bandfield wrote:
I am the one who wrote this. I actually saw one plugged into someone's rig at the Wisconsin Rally last year, but I don't remember if it showed amps. It had a digital display. Seems to me one SHOULD be able to find one like that. If it hasn't been invented I'm going to hurry up and get to work.
Jess specifically said it was a "amp reading device" however I suspect he has some kind of voltage meter/monitor instead of an ammeter. To read amps you have to break the circuit and put the meter in series. Even a clamp on type of device is not that easy to use on most appliances because it requires the operator to clamp onto one leg of the circuit and you can't find a physical place to isolate one of the 2 or 3 wires on most modern appliances. (The little watt meter Trish referenced with the url is actually a ammeter calibrated to watts. It is iserted into the circuit between the source and the load. However, in my opinion its use is limited to very special circumstances - or for those with too much money.)

Caution: Measuring amps in a circuit is not as simple as measuring voltage. Measuring amps requires the ammeter to be inserted into the circuit in series. Putting an ammeter across a circuit in the same way a voltmeter is used will often result in sparks and a blown fuse or a blown meter. Don't attempt to measure current in a circuit unless you know exactly what you are doing or get a clamp-on ammeter to avoid the hazards.

Mike
Mike & Jean
2005 26' RSS Diesel
Trisha

Post by Trisha »

You've blown your cover, Mike. It is now perfectly clear that YOU KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING! Aha!

That means I'm stopping by your place! <grin>

LOL

Patrisha
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