ck - putting water in coach house batteries - how often?

[Mary]

Thank you so much for taking the time to add these helpful photos. I'm not certain if I can see those max rings in my battery fill tubes but I will look again once our storm has passed. I tried earlier to shine a flashlight into the opening but it didn't seem to make a difference of what I was able to see.

Perhaps the cutout on the side of the fill tube is the dark place on the side of your fill tube that I can see on your photo. The max fill ring doesn't go all the way round the fill tube so it looked to me like a cut out/opening on the side of the tube. I didn't see a max fill ring so there may be too much water in there or the water level may be just above it, covering the max ring.

I live in the south and we have so many storms blow up during this time of year. Lightning and heavy rain for a bit, then it moves on. I'll go out once this passes and see if I can better determine what the interior of the tube looks like. Being shiny black, it is hard to make out anything other than the surface of the water. Maybe after dark, the flashlight would better display the interior of the fill tubes.

Being by myself, I need to learn this. Thank you so much for your help. Many of the how to video's describe these items but never actually show them. I guess it is assumed the viewer knows something about how batteries are structured.

Mary

[Mary]

Double post deleted by website administrator (bfadmin-2).

[bcope01]

When I was a teenager working at a gas station pumping gas, checking tire pressure, washing windshields, checking oil, and topping off batteries, we used one of these. Each pump island had one. They cut off water delivery when the cell was full (and below the Max Level indicator). Easy peasy.

http://www.amazon.com/Plews-75-030-Capa ... E5JC7862M3

Bill

[Mary]

oops, didn't mean to double post and I can't see how to delete one of them.

I have one Marine Deep cycle Interstate battery that looks like the six cells might be a bit over filled, based on all I've read.

On the other hand, the other battery had 5 of the 6 cells completely dry! It took quite a bit of distilled water to fill them up to where the water looked to be about 1/8th above the plate. I can't see any markings down in there to know for certain where it should be filled to but as everyone has stressed, I know the plates should be covered. That battery may be a gone goose. If so, I may just have Lifeline AGM batteries set in there so I don't have to worry over the water levels. I'm not certain I can get that battery filler that automatically shuts off to fit in the back cells as it appears it needs to be straight up and down so the filler fits snug into the cell opening. Mel has some other wiring coming off of the batteries and those wires thread under the battery handle and fit over the back cell cover. I wouldn't want to dislodge those wires.

Is there a danger of damaging something in the coach if I plug in the coach again to see if the batteries charge properly or should I disconnect the batteries until I can get new ones? I believe I read somewhere that the power converter has to have settings changed, too, if I change the type of batteries?

Mary

[Mike Jean Bandfield]

You seem a little unsure about this yet, Mary. Let's tie up some loose ends and connect some dots and I think we can get you to a reasonable level of confidence. I will try and clear some of the ambiguities. We might need some pictures. In any case stay with us and we'll eventually get you up to speed.

I have one Marine Deep cycle Interstate battery that looks like the six cells might be a bit over filled, based on all I've read. On the other hand, the other battery had 5 of the 6 cells completely dry! It took quite a bit of distilled water to fill them up to where the water looked to be about 1/8th above the plate.

Mary, are these 2 batteries the coach batts? ...are they connected in parallel? ...or is one the coach battery and the other the chassis battery?

If those 2 batteries are connected together are they dissimilar in size, type or brand? That would explain why one is using water at a faster rate. (They should be replaced by 2 - 12VDC batteries of identical age and specs in parallel or two 6VDC batteries connected in series.) However, in either case, that battery that went dry has been stressed severely. It may have useful life left in it and may respond to a desulfinating charger.

I can't see any markings down in there to know for certain where it should be filled to but as everyone has stressed, I know the plates should be covered. That battery may be a gone goose.

Most batteries do not have labels delineating the fill line like those in Bill's pictures.

If so, I may just have Lifeline AGM batteries set in there so I don't have to worry over the water levels. I'm not certain I can get that battery filler that automatically shuts off to fit in the back cells as it appears it needs to be straight up and down so the filler fits snug into the cell opening. Mel has some other wiring coming off of the batteries and those wires thread under the battery handle and fit over the back cell cover. I wouldn't want to dislodge those wires.

You won't need the battery filler once you understand what you are looking at under the filler caps.

Look very carefully at Bill's pictures 1 and 2. Picture #2 shows a cell with water covering the plates but the water level is still below the bottom of the filler tube. Picture #1 shows the same cell with the water level just up to the bottom of the filler tube. You can easily see the difference between pictures 1 and 2 because the water surface tension and cohesion creates a curved surface that distorts reflected light - the 'meniscus' referenced in the photo's label. It seems obvious if you know what you are looking for and the filler tube is designed to to maximize the effect; but if it isn't pointed out to someone the difference may be too subtle to see or understand. The meniscus is the subtle indication that tells you the cell is full. A water level that is between covering the plates and up to the point where it touches the filler tube is within it's functional range.

There is another gotcha when dealing with battery water levels and it comes into play more often with deep discharge batteries than starting batteries. When you charge batteries the water/acid fluid takes on oxygen AND it gains substantial volume. Likewise, as it discharges, the fluid loses volume. This is why we consider the fluid level full when it is at the bottom of the fill tube; it allows some room for expansion as the battery is charged. However, I have discovered that many batteries can overflow or boil over if they are topped up with water when in a state of deep discharge and then charged or if they are over charged (boiled) with a cheap single stage charger. So before charging check the level and add water to cover the plates if they are exposed. Then charge the battery before filling to the bottom of the filler tube.

Is there a danger of damaging something in the coach if I plug in the coach again to see if the batteries charge properly or should I disconnect the batteries until I can get new ones?

No danger. But if the batteries are dissimilar or there's unbalanced wiring that taps the batteries for different uses (dissimilar rates of discharge) then there might be continuing stress on the batteries.

I believe I read somewhere that the power converter has to have settings changed, too, if I change the type of batteries?

Yes, gel cells and lead/acid batteries have different charge and float voltages.

Mike

[Mary]

Thank you, Mike, for all the helpful information. This club and forum members are the best and are so kind to share your knowledge.

The batteries are the coach/house batteries and are identical, with identical date punches and they are connected together. I'm not certain I understand the date punches, Sept is clear but the year is punched as 1. I will assume that means 2011. This coach was Mel and Connie's coach and I know Mel had everything set up correctly but the second owner disconnected some things and I think may have added something in the battery compartment. I 'think' Mel had a trickle charge wired directly from the house batteries to the chassis battery. I 'think' the second owner installed his own trickle charge type of charger connected to the dry celled battery as there is a wire with a little plug connection hanging off of the dry celled battery. He left a charger that also plugs into a house type electrical outlet and I assume it is what would be attached to the little wire hanging off of the house battery that has/had the dry cells. I have a dedicated 30 amp outlet to use for the coach so I can leave the coach plugged in all the time like Mel did.

I just purchased this coach from the couple who bought it from Mel and Connie in 2013. Sad to say I drove it down from New Hampshire with the batteries in this condition, using the coach systems during my trip. I am now attempting to work through and understand all the systems and how to maintain them. My late husband always took care of these types of things. I should have taken more interest. My other BF had AGM batteries installed so I didn't need to learn about the care of these flooded cell types of batteries.

Should I plug in the coach and see how it goes now that there is water in all the cells or is there something further to do before attempting to charge the batteries? Or should I assume they need to be changed out without attempting to charge them?

If I turn to OFF the battery disconnect, should that keep the batteries from trying to charge as I drive? Thinking ahead in case I need to take the coach somewhere to have new batteries installed. I don't want to damage anything so would rather just put in new batteries if there is a chance of causing coach system damage by attempting to use these batteries.

Our Camping World used to sell Lifeline AGM batteries but now I see they sell Exide AGM batteries. It looks like, if I'm understanding the information, that all of these batteries only have a 60 AMP hours rating? Does this mean it would provide 120 AMP hours with two wired together or maximum when used in a series of two for a 12 volt system?

My sincere thanks again for all of the help.

Mary

[Mike Jean Bandfield]

I've went back through some of Mel's old posts.

The batteries are the coach/house batteries and are identical, with identical date punches and they are connected together. I'm not certain I understand the date punches, Sept is clear but the year is punched as 1. I will assume that means 2011.

2011 - That's correct.

This coach was Mel and Connie's coach and I know Mel had everything set up correctly but the second owner disconnected some things and I think may have added something in the battery compartment. I 'think' Mel had a trickle charge wired directly from the house batteries to the chassis battery.

Mel had a trickle charger dedicated to the chassis battery that was plugged into a 120vac outlet so that it was always 'ON' when plugged into shore power. It was not connected to the house/coach batteries in any way.

I 'think' the second owner installed his own trickle charge type of charger connected to the dry celled battery as there is a wire with a little plug connection hanging off of the dry celled battery. He left a charger that also plugs into a house type electrical outlet and I assume it is what would be attached to the little wire hanging off of the house battery that has/had the dry cells.

With the Progressive Dynamics 45 Amp 3 stage charger installed, Mel simply left the charger on while connected to shore power in storage. The batteries stayed at a perfect 13.2 VDC and used very little water. The second owner, for whatever reason, put a trickle charger on the house batteries. This might indicate a lack of knowledge on the part of the 2nd owner regarding the PD-4045 and/or his technical knowledge and abilities. ...or the dry battery simply had a mfg flaw (shorted plates) that caused it to fail. Is it possible the dry battery was in a difficult position and just hadn't been checked? In any case, the battery that went dry has been compromised and it will no longer be a close match to it's mate. If you do extended periods of dry camping you'll have reduced capacity and reliability from this pair. I would replace them with 2 - 6 VDC batteries connected in series and have your wiring checked for proper connectivity. If you don't do extended boondocking these 2 batteries could give you adequate service for awhile.

....Should I plug in the coach and see how it goes now that there is water in all the cells or is there something further to do before attempting to charge the batteries?

You are OK to use them. Continue to monitor the battery that went dry for excessive use of water.

If I turn to OFF the battery disconnect, should that keep the batteries from trying to charge as I drive? Thinking ahead in case I need to take the coach somewhere to have new batteries installed. I don't want to damage anything so would rather just put in new batteries if there is a chance of causing coach system damage by attempting to use these batteries.

There's no danger to any of your systems that I can think of. If the condition that caused the dry battery to boil off still exists it will continue to be stressed.

Our Camping World used to sell Lifeline AGM batteries but now I see they sell Exide AGM batteries. It looks like, if I'm understanding the information, that all of these batteries only have a 60 AMP hours rating? Does this mean it would provide 120 AMP hours with two wired together or maximum when used in a series of two for a 12 volt system?

No matter whether they are 6V or 12V - simply add up the AH ratings for total capacity. Maybe someone else can comment regarding the PD4045's ability to handle the AGMs properly.

Mike

[whemme]

No matter whether they are 6V or 12V - simply add up the AH ratings for total capacity. Maybe someone else can comment regarding the PD4045's ability to handle the AGMs properly.

Mike

I need to correct the above statement by Mike. If two identical 6 V batteries are connected in series - the resulting AH capacity is the same as that of one battery - that is, the AH capacity is not doubled with batteries connected in series. If two identical 12 V batteries are connected in parallel, then the the resulting AH capacity is double that of one of the batteries.

[Mike Jean Bandfield]

No matter whether they are 6V or 12V - simply add up the AH ratings for total capacity. Maybe someone else can comment regarding the PD4045's ability to handle the AGMs properly.

Mike

I need to correct the above statement by Mike. If two identical 6 V batteries are connected in series - the resulting AH capacity is the same as that of one battery - that is, the AH capacity is not doubled with batteries connected in series. If two identical 12 V batteries are connected in parallel, then the the resulting AH capacity is double that of one of the batteries.

Thanks Bill The point I had in my head - which stayed in my head - is that 12V or 6V batteries of the same volume and weight will have roughly the same capacity.

Mike

[Mary]

Thank you, one and all,

I feel more confident now with all the helpful information and explanations that have been offered here.

I did plug the coach back in and so far, so good. It is storming again but as soon as it clears, will recheck the water levels to see how they're holding up.

I so hope Mel's wiring to maintain the chassis battery is still intact as I will use my 30 amp service to keep the coach plugged in here at home. I looked under the truck hood and can see what appears to be a wire coming off of the truck battery and it looks like there are additional wires coming off of the house batteries so I'm hopeful Mel's wiring is still connected and functioning. Since one of the house batteries has been badly compromised, I will plan to replace these batteries.

Mary

[Mike Jean Bandfield]

This is the picture I was afraid I'd see. Neither of the terminals on the left side of the picture should have any other wires attached except the 2 fat red and black wires. The fat cables should be exactly the same length and have the same type of terminal lugs attached (and they look like they do.) All the other wires should be attached to the right terminals. This might require an auxiliary terminal like this: http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/6 ... L1100_.jpg. I think Mel had some add on monitoring devices and they probably draw very little current but I'd still move them. Other devices should be connected at the fuse panel if at all possible. The trickle charger the 2nd owner added is not necessary and if it were attached to the left terminals and used it could account for the problems. Even though these devices probably don't cause that much current flow, they do cause, or contribute to, an imbalance between the 2 batteries which causes them to constantly have small current flows going back and forth. It's these constant parasitic drains that cause batteries connected in parallel to wear out faster - that is why series connected batteries are the preferred choice. (I had BF put in 6V original batteries which lasted 9 years.)

...I did plug the coach back in and so far, so good. It is storming again but as soon as it clears, will recheck the water levels to see how they're holding up.

After a couple of days charging look into the cells on each battery. If the one that went dry is bubbling more than the other one then there is an imbalance condition that still exists. It could be from the wiring or a defect in the battery. You won't know until those wires are moved.

I so hope Mel's wiring to maintain the chassis battery is still intact as I will use my 30 amp service to keep the coach plugged in here at home.

I'm confident you still have the PD 4045 and it is charging properly.

I looked under the truck hood and can see what appears to be a wire coming off of the truck battery and it looks like there are additional wires coming off of the house batteries so I'm hopeful Mel's wiring is still connected and functioning.

Do you know where Mel's Trick-L-Charger is plugged in? If you follow that wire off the truck battery I hope it leads you to it. You should know where it is and keep it plugged in so that the truck battery is maintained when you're on shore power.

Since one of the house batteries has been badly compromised, I will plan to replace these batteries.

You might be able to get another season out of these. Even if we find that one has failed you can disconnect it and live off of the other 'til you find the replacements you want at the right price.

Because batteries are extremely heavy and are capable of delivering high current which can weld and burn wires plus the acid dangers - I would recommend you have someone experienced do the exchange or train you.

Did Mel install a battery monitoring panel? Also, there are some cheap tools that could help you diagnose battery and charger problems - a digital multimeter <$10 for continuity and voltage testing (some have settings for testing the life left in your device batteries). This meter does require a basic understanding of Ohm's law.

Mike

[thestoloffs]

Mary wrote:

I looked under the truck hood and can see what appears to be a wire coming off of the truck battery and it looks like there are additional wires coming off of the house batteries so I'm hopeful Mel's wiring is still connected and functioning.

Do you know where Mel's Trick-L-Charger is plugged in? If you follow that wire off the truck battery I hope it leads you to it. You should know where it is and keep it plugged in so that the truck battery is maintained when you're on shore power.

Be aware that a TRIK-L-START is NOT a charger that can merely be plugged into a house or shore outlet!

To quote LSL Products, "TRIK-L-START™ is a "diversion charger" - Basically, it "steals" a little bit of current from your house battery charger, diverting it to keep your engine starting battery(s) charged. Since it is DC-powered, it does not require any direct connection to AC power - No extension cords or AC wiring required.

TRIK-L-START™ only works when there is a house battery charging source (i.e., DC power converter, inverter/charger or solar panels) present. In the absence of this charging source, TRIK-L-START™ is effectively disconnected, and doesn't supply any charge to your starting battery(s)."

[Mel Wilbur]

model_709-PH_lg-1-1.jpg (25.31 KiB) Viewed 12562 times

Mary, the previous post by the Stoloffs is correct regarding the Trik-L-Start. You will find the unit attached to the chassis frame forward of the house battery compartment. Basically it charges the chassis battery anytime there is 120v supplied to the coach, such as being plugged in or running the generator. As for monitoring the coach batteries, that is one of the features of the see-level system as shown on the attached picture. When the coach left my garage there was an expandable folder with all the original installation/instructions of all the add-on items to the coach. The chassis battery is monitored on the VIP-Sensitor panel located on the dash.

[Mary]

Marilynn & Gerry Stoloff, thank you for the clarification. Mel has the Trik-L-Start chassis battery maintainer installed. It will work well for my situation as I will leave the coach plugged into a dedicated 30 amp service and won't have to worry over the chassis battery while it is parked here at home. The second owner used a Battery Minder, which I think is a type of trickle charger that is plugged directly into an electrical outlet? I'm guessing it is meant to help maintain the coach batteries without having the entire coach plugged in?

Thank you, Mel, for your clarification. The brown folder was passed on to me. I'm just a bit dense regarding much of the hardware but I am trying to learn. Mr. Wallis removed the tire sensors and removed a fuse for something else. If I understood, the fuse was attached to the box under the dash on the passenger side of the cab. I've yet to learn what that box is for. I thought he told me it related to the VIP senors on the dash but if so, the green light still comes on there so perhaps I mis understood.

I have checked the batteries again and they are holding the water levels with no indication of boil over. After two days of being plugged in, I unplugged the coach then checked the battery voltage level on the SeeLevel II monitor and it is 12.6. Shouldn't it be higher?

I feel better about caring for this battery type so may consider reinstalling wet cell batteries, especially if I can't locate a local Lifeline battery distributor. I would like than 60 amp hours, which appears to be the max amount the battery brand carried by my Camping World supplies. Still learning about the batteries but feeling much better about handling them, thanks to everyone's help.

Mary

[Brent]

I've used these for many years (12+)
Just pump and fills the battery, you don't have to remove anything or see in the cell (actually you don't need to pull the battery tray all the way out). The last pair of 6v lasted almost five years.
Brent

http://m.campingworld.com/shopping/item ... stem/27035