Refrigerator on propane or using an inverter to provide elec

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whemme
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Re: Refrigerator on propane or using an inverter to provide

Post by whemme »

Vlamgat,

Well here we go again. What the heck is a condenser? If an inverter has one I have never heard of it. If you mean capacitor, the physical size of a capacitor to retain enough of a charge to run an inverter powering an A/C for even a few minuites would need to be the size of the coach itself.
Bill Hemme - Spencer, Iowa
E-mail: whemme@earthlink.net
2002 Born Free (Ford E-450 V10) 26' RSB
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Vlamgat
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Re: Refrigerator on propane or using an inverter to provide

Post by Vlamgat »

It takes 30 amps or at least 3000 to 4000 watts provided by 2000 watts of Honda power and 2000 watts of inverter augmentation. After the start, the Honda manages on its own but very little amperage is available for the battery.
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Mike Jean Bandfield
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Re: Refrigerator on propane or using an inverter to provide

Post by Mike Jean Bandfield »

whemme wrote:Well I guess I never heard of a situation where an inverter was employed to run an A/C. If in fact that is the case it would require an 6000 watt rated inverter assuming the A/C draws about 20 amps to run it. That would require a current draw in excess of 400 amps from the house batteries which would deplete them in around only 20 minutes. So I really doubt that an inverter would be employed to run the A/C.
In this case, I think, he's running the AC off the inverter and charging the batteries, via generator or AC, at the same time. So the net affect is a slow drain on the batteries during the day and a slow recovery as the batteries catch up at night. If the generator was connected to the coaches AC supply directly there would not be a problem, unless, the single Honda 2000 was unable to handle the AC compressor starts. We don't know if the coach(s) are configured to run the entire AC distribution from the inverter or if the AC was purposely wired to the inverter to absorb and balance the AC surges that result from compressor starts. :?
Mike & Jean
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whemme
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Re: Refrigerator on propane or using an inverter to provide

Post by whemme »

Vlamgat,

What type of charger/converter are your coaches equipped with? An important piece of information.
Bill Hemme - Spencer, Iowa
E-mail: whemme@earthlink.net
2002 Born Free (Ford E-450 V10) 26' RSB
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Mike Jean Bandfield
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Re: Refrigerator on propane or using an inverter to provide

Post by Mike Jean Bandfield »

Vlamgat,
In a way, your inverter and battery bank is already performing a soft start function, albeit, very inefficiently. https://www.microair.net/products/easys ... 0176048267 doesn't create power. So, using the soft start device on an AC connected to an inverter will likely still result in a net loss of battery charge throughout the daylight hours due to the inefficiencies of running an AC on an inverter. You need to remove the AC's 120VAC supply from the inverter and connect it directly to the RV's 120VAC distribution panel so that it receives it's power directly from the 120VAC source and not via the inverter. Then, the soft start device might be able to smooth the surges enough to allow your generator to handle the load. If your RV's are wired so that all 120VAC devices are always powered via the inverter consider rewiring the coach to optimize the use of battery/inverter powered 120VAC devices and using the 120VAC supply for things like microwaves, water heaters, coffee makers, space heaters, ammonia refrigerators and air conditioners.
Mike & Jean
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whemme
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Re: Refrigerator on propane or using an inverter to provide

Post by whemme »

Please don't disregard the value of a modern 3-stage charger/converter in providing a much higher battery recharging current. As much as I can gleen from the Born Free owner's manuals, 2014 and earlier were equipped with the inferior single stage units with the factory starting to install 3-stage units in 2015 model years and later.
Bill Hemme - Spencer, Iowa
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2002 Born Free (Ford E-450 V10) 26' RSB
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tomzleapin
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Re: Refrigerator on propane or using an inverter to provide

Post by tomzleapin »

Talk about mass confusion.
Question; is Vlamgat powering his A/C (air conditioner) with an inverter? Which would make no sense at all.

As far as an A/C unit goes, capacitors (condensers) do not store power. The compressor in an A/C unit typically will have start and run capacitors that alter the phase of the voltage and current. Inverters and converter/chargers will have capacitors but they have nothing to do with storing power. Capacitors can only store DC voltage and as Bill said, you would need one the size of a house to store even a small amount of power.

The EasyStart that was mentioned also does not store any power. It just does a better job of adjusting the voltage to current phase going to the compressor.

But, all this has no bearing on running the fridge on an inverter. I run mine on propane while driving as well as many other people. Keep in mind that running the fridge on inverter while driving will consume a bit more gasoline. I don't know what the cost difference of gasoline vs propane would be. But, if the fear of an open flame is an issue, an inverter will work. I believe that a fridge on A.C. draws about 300 watts, so you wouldn't need a huge inverter to power it.
Tom
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whemme
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Re: Refrigerator on propane or using an inverter to provide

Post by whemme »

Mass confusion indeed! When it comes to talking electric system issues, the need to use proper terminology is especially important.

Now as for the possibility of using an inverter connected in parallel with the 115 vac output from the generator to boost the power available to run or start an A/C, I really don't see how that would be possible. The ac voltage output from the inverter and the ac voltage output from the generator would each be of a slightly different frequency and phase. Wiring the two outputs in parallel would not work for those reasons. An inverter would most likely be destroyed or protective circuit breaker blown if this was attempted.

When a inverter is installed in a coach, it is typically wired to power certain 115 vac outlets or certain appliances such as a TV with likely a switch to connect those specific outlets or TV from either inverter power or the normal 115 vac bus powered by either the shoreline power connection or the generator output.
Bill Hemme - Spencer, Iowa
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2002 Born Free (Ford E-450 V10) 26' RSB
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jleebailey
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Re: Refrigerator on propane or using an inverter to provide

Post by jleebailey »

Am wondering what an investor is. Never heard of that term.
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Vlamgat
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Re: Refrigerator on propane or using an inverter to provide

Post by Vlamgat »

[quote="jleebailey"]Am wondering what an investor is. Never heard of that term.[/quote]
Cute question. Are we not all investors in BF at least!
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whemme
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Re: Refrigerator on propane or using an inverter to provide

Post by whemme »

I think jleebailey along with the rest of us was referring to your statement in one of your earlier posts as follows: The rv a/c start amperage is about 40 amps which is all the generator (when using the Honda) and the investor can provide. The constant cycling of these starts in the summer taxes the battery which cannot recharge the investor and itself from the limited amperage of the Honda.

EDIT Addition: If you actually intended to use the term inverter rather than investor, it would have been helpful with everyone's understanding if you had edited your post and changed the word. Also it is not possible to recharge an inverter if that is what you meant to say. An inverter only converts 12 vdc power into 115 vac power and has no energy storage function that can be recharged.
Bill Hemme - Spencer, Iowa
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2002 Born Free (Ford E-450 V10) 26' RSB
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shilohdad
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Re: Refrigerator on propane or using an inverter to provide

Post by shilohdad »

A couple of things:

1) We really do seem to have hijacked Dallas’s thread. Perhaps all this discussion of vlamgat’s problem should be moved to a separate thread.

2) It would be really helpful if vlamgat could succinctly describe all of his electrical connections. It seems to me that he is somehow using an external Honda generator to somehow get AC power into his coach. How is that wired in. He also has an inverter in there somewhere. How is that wired in. At times he mentions charging the inverter, but inverters don’t get charged, as Bill Hemme mentioned.

Now, in our coach, we have an Outback inverter/charger and no converter. When getting AC power from shore power or generator, and the inverter/charger is turned on, the charger portion charges our coach batteries, while the inverter portion powers our internal AC outlets. Our major AC draws (refrigerator, microwave, water heater and air conditioner do NOT get powered from the inverter. They get power directly from the AC power source. It sounds as if vlamgat somehow has his air conditioner powered via the inverter???

Again, it would really help to have a complete understanding of his electrical configuration.

And for my final pet peeve, does vlamgat actually have a name. On every other chat board, it is considered polite to sign with your actual name, at least your first name.
Joe and Lucinda
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jlef123
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Re: Refrigerator on propane or using an inverter to provide

Post by jlef123 »

This entire thread is very confusing and makes no sense to me. I have to agree with Joe as our 2015 coach has the same Outback power system that he has. I was told that the 2014 models used the same system. The only thing that I would question is Joe's comment that the 110 receptacles in the coach are powered by the inverter when on shore power. The Outback Inverter/Charger has a built in transfer switch for shore power and I am thinking that those receptacles and all appliances are powered directly from shore power rather than the inverter. Seems to me that when you start the generator or plug the power cable for the coach into a generator the system reads that as being on shore power and all 110 service goes directly to the shorepower. I do not understand how the AC in Vlamgat's coach is in anyway powered by the batteries through the inverter. I agree that the inverter does not power the items that Joe listed. Here is a URL for a description of the Outback Inverter model that is in my coach.
https://www.solar-electric.com/outback- ... 012mt.html

I hope I never have to replace it as it is really expensive. For those of you who are not familiar with this inverter/charger it is not mounted inside the coach as is the case with older Born Free's. It is almost totally weatherproof and mounted to the chassis behind the rear axle. That means we do not hear the sounds that you get from the inside mounted inverter/chargers. I believe Vlamgat's questions could be best answered by the folks at fireflyintegrations.com who designed and sold the electrical system to Born Free. The outback inverter charger is only one part of the system. I should qualify this response that I and most of the other responders are referring to Vlamgat's 2014 Born Free Triumph and not to his 2000 Sportsmobile.
Joel & Sandy
2002 26' RB
2015 27' Splendor
2020 Coachmen Beyond
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shilohdad
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Re: Refrigerator on propane or using an inverter to provide

Post by shilohdad »

Joel, I stand corrected. If the Outback detects proper AC input from shore line or the generator, it uses that to send AC to the AC outlets.

Unfortunately, our Outback was not installed correctly at the factory. The ground wire was not tightened down properly and shorted out the unit. It was, indeed, expensive to replace, since Born Free was now defunct (we were scheduled to get it looked into at the factory when they closed). Ah, such is life.

FYI, the short caused the Outback to not sense proper AC input, so it would not charge the batteries or send AC power directly to the AC outlets. The inverter section still sent AC power (via the batteries) to our AC outlets. The bypass function still worked, so we still got AC power to our air conditioner, refrigerator, water heater and microwave. We had to run the Ford engine to recharge our batteries if we were just sitting.

Also, if you ever have a problem with the Outback, don’t expect a lot from their “service” network. We had 3 different servicers they referred us to either refuse to even look at it, or, in some cases, even call us back. We eventually went to a local RV service center who worked with Outback to replace the failed unit. Lots of bucks spent there.
Joe and Lucinda
Tonto, Meadow and Shadow, the papillons
Shiloh and Morpho at Rainbow Bridge
2017 Spirit
Formerly 2006 24RB
jlef123
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Re: Refrigerator on propane or using an inverter to provide

Post by jlef123 »

Joe, I had problems with my batteries and the charging system when I took delivery of my coach. I found the Firefly folks to be a lot more helpful than the techs at Outback. At that time I spoke with Leon Bontrager, the president of Firefly. The phone number is 574-825-4600. I would suggest using them for help with outback inverter issues in the future.
Joel & Sandy
2002 26' RB
2015 27' Splendor
2020 Coachmen Beyond
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