Two Electrical 120v service questions?

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Vlamgat
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 9:11 pm

Two Electrical 120v service questions?

Post by Vlamgat »

A) The owners manual for the post 2014 coaches says this with respect to the Inverter Control:
"For models with an “Outback” Inverter/Charger, the control panel is located near the entrance door. To disconnect the inverter from the batteries use the inverter battery disconnect (Figure 3.6) located between the generator and the batteries."

I have discovered by happenstance on my 2014 Triumph Royal that when this switch is off while the coach is connected to the shore power, not only is the inverter disconnected but all the circuits that are powered by the inverter which seems to include the battery charger and Mate2 control, are also disconnected. There is no power to the these circuits at the breaker box and the GFI is disabled.

Is this everyone's set up?

B) The manual also says that "When the motorcoach is plugged in to 120-volt shoreline power, or, when the auxiliary generator is running, a [b][u]small charge[/u][/b] is generated through the power converter to the auxiliary batteries. The rate of this charge, however, is a great deal less and will take longer to recharge." My emphasis.

This contradicts the Outback Manual that says up to 80 Amps are available to to charge the batteries. And while I concede the coach only has a 30 amp capacity, how or why is the charge to the house batteries being limited relative to the charger capacity which can be set on the controller. I never see more than 4 amps from this set up even when the indicated battery voltage starts at 11.5v which is in theory over 50% discharged. This could mean my batteries are toast but I am still able to get the charger "off" indicated voltage up to the 14.4v set by the controller. I know I have to wait 4 hours with zero load to establish the true state of charge but have never been able to do this. But the question remains as to whether we are able to access the represented charge capacity of the Outback 2012 or is it really a limited capacity installation?

Any insights appreciated.
montir
Posts: 34
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2015 8:37 pm

Re: Two Electrical 120v service questions?

Post by montir »

I don't have an answer to your first question since I always have the battery disconnect switch (near the door) and the Outback switch (by the generator) on when I am using the unit.

As to your second question, I don't have the manual in front of me but recall that the Outback can be wired to two battery banks. The primary would be the house batteries and the other could be the chassis battery or something else and would be considered the auxiliary batteries by Outback. The Outback in my BF only charges the house batteries and I have seen it delivering 80 Amps at around 14 V shortly after starting the Generator when the batteries were somewhere around 70%. This rate tapers off as the percent of charge increases.

At the risk of telling you something you already know, it is possible that you are looking at the 120V input current to the Outback. Ohms law applies here: the formula is P (power)=I (current) times E (voltage). A load that draws 8 Amps at 120 Volts when run thru a 100% efficient converter will draw 80 Amps at 12 Volts. I monitor the state of my batteries and the current flow with a Blue Sky remote monitor that is part of the solar system. It uses a shunt on the negative cable from the house batteries to monitor all current flowing to and from the batteries.
Monti
2015 Triumph Royal RB 4X4
Vlamgat
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 9:11 pm

Re: Two Electrical 120v service questions?

Post by Vlamgat »

Some additional elements thanks to your answer:

I had also never switched off the Inverter at its master switch and the 12v cut off until this month in order to try a charger that desulphated as it charged rather than the the one-time, time limited capability of the Outback. When I switched everything back on, functionality was normal but the Zamp solar controller (which is also shut down when the 12v cut off takes place) registered a minimal charge in sunlight and zero Amp/hours of capacity. Until now I believed (and nothing in the Zamp owners manual would indicate otherwise) that the Zamp was measuring actual battery capacity. It routinely showed more than 350 Amp/hours from a nominal 300 Amp/hour battery set. When I saw the zero, I assumed that something about the new charger had destroyed my batteries.

So I set about trying to resuscitate them. Using the Outback, another charger with 20 amp capacity and the solar et up. Gradually, over 2 weeks Time impacted by rain and clouds) the Zamp capacity returned to 300 Amp/hour but the voltage in the Lifetime 6v batteries never reached a level that made me believe that they either were never damaged by my charger or that I had restored their capacity. So I changed them. With the install of a new set, the Zamp indicated zero capacity again and that was my eye opener. It appers (to me at least) that the Zamp does not measure battery capacity at all but rather the amount of Amp/hours the Zamp has contributed to the extent that the battery set can accept that power. To me this is a useless function but am putting it out there to see if other users of this seemingly unique BF setup have seen any of the same or done this sort of analysis.

I have also surmised that the battery set I removed was OK and just needed desulphation which I had never attempted because I never deeply discharged them. I have since attempted that and am getting an "at rest" reading of 6.3v which per the Lifetime Manual is nominal for 100%.

On the issue of the charger capability of the Outback: I am taking my reading from the Summary Page of the Mate2 controller that reads in Amps AC and aggregates the total Amp draw from the Shore/generator power so I think your analysis is correct. There may be a Page that gives me a vDC draw that I can research.
Vlamgat
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 9:11 pm

Re: Two Electrical 120v service questions?

Post by Vlamgat »

[quote="montir"]

At the risk of telling you something you already know, it is possible that you are looking at the 120V input current to the Outback. Ohms law applies here: the formula is P (power)=I (current) times E (voltage). A load that draws 8 Amps at 120 Volts when run thru a 100% efficient converter will draw 80 Amps at 12 Volts. I monitor the state of my batteries and the current flow with a Blue Sky remote monitor that is part of the solar system. It uses a shunt on the negative cable from the house batteries to monitor all current flowing to and from the batteries.[/quote]

BTW, this advice is correct. My charger is designed to provide 80 Adc and the Owners Manual advises to divide by 10 to obtain the Aac number or 8 amps ac. I have seen 4 amps from time to time on the Controller so presumably I am charging at 40 Amps dc which is reasonable if the voltage is somewhere between 12.2 and 12.4 vdc. The exact amount is unknown because the batteries have to rest under zero load for 4 hours to show their true state of charge.
Vlamgat
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 9:11 pm

Re: Two Electrical 120v service questions?

Post by Vlamgat »

In answer to my own question: This is the definition of the Zamp display readings on the Zamp web site:

All Zamp Solar charge controllers (except for our 8-Amp charge controller) have a large digital display that shows you the following information:

Charging Voltage: The voltage going from the solar panel to the battery

Current Amperage: The amperage going from the solar panel to the battery

[b]Cumulative AmpHours: The cumulative AmpHours generated over the past day
[/b]
This is not what the Owners Manual says which states that the Current Amperage is the Capacity of the Battery. I had left the inverter ON and the 12v supply OFF, covered and stored the RV, and that zeroed out the CUMULATIVE charge. Quite logical but I thought that meant my batteries were toast especially because the cloudy day made the voltage acquired by the solar (not available at the batteries) quite low, when the cover came off. I did cross check it with the RV voltage indicator and they were the same - around 12.0v. This was after standing powered off for 3 weeks. Clearly if the inverter is ON and the 12v supply is off, the 2 amp charger to which the batteries were connected was not enough to overcome the inverter drain even though its claimed to draw 0.5 amps/hour.

Strange stuff.
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