Discussion of Operational Limitations of Ford V10 Engines

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FrankGRUN
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:27 pm

Discussion of Operational Limitations of Ford V10 Engines

Post by FrankGRUN »

Gentlemen, I post infrequently in this Forum because my interests are generally more technical and focus of Coach modifications, both powertrain and motorhome interior functionality. Also, I am the owner of a 37 year old edition of the Born Free 24ft. President Rear Bath model and couldn't be happier with my subtly modified machine. Nonetheless, I have recently come across an extended and very informed discussion of the operational characteristics of the Ford V10 engine that includes an analysis of aftermarket tuning approaches effecting both the engine and transmission. The discussion includes the V10 powertrain versions delivered with the E350/450 as well as the F43 chassis. The multipage thread can be found here:

http://www.irv2.com/forums/f23/facts-ab ... 51629.html

As you read through this, you will see a number of skeptical and defensive responses by individuals responding to the original poster. I would only caution you that the OP is a long term professional mechanic and tuner and his comments are highly respected and accepted in the professional tuning community. In my engine modification and tuning efforts with the carbureted 460, the EFI 460 and at least two versions of the V10, I have always felt that the 460 (not discussed in the article) is a far more robust engine. Coupled with an upgraded AOD transmission, the 460 EFI engine is the best power train for these vehicles. I have also seen and personally duplicated several of the observations offered by the OP in the cited thread.

But returning to the cited discussion of the V10, you might look for documented real performance improvements and specific operating limitations that effect the lifetime of both the V10 engine and the associated transmission. Happy reading!
Frank and Paula
1982 BF 24' RB
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stevek
Posts: 1184
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:33 pm

Re: Discussion of Operational Limitations of Ford V10 Engine

Post by stevek »

Thanks for link. It will take me some time to read all this and digest.
I have 5 Star Tuning and have be very happy with it. 8)
Steve
2011 Born Free 22 foot RSK, rear side (corner) kitchen, E350, 29k miles.
Our first motorhome. Lots to learn. Thanks.
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perleys
Posts: 117
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2015 3:45 pm

Re: Discussion of Operational Limitations of Ford V10 Engine

Post by perleys »

Could you briefly describe what is a 5 star tuning?
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stevek
Posts: 1184
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:33 pm

Re: Discussion of Operational Limitations of Ford V10 Engine

Post by stevek »

First of all, I am a real novice on this topic.
Its been a few years I have had 5 star tuning. So my memory... :lol:
It basically changes your shift points.
I found when I accelerated from a stand still, it was not as labored.
Easier climbing a hill.
Also I thought my RPM was slightly lower at cruising speed.
And I thought I got slightly better gas mileage... maybe 1/4 mpg at most?
I get about 10.5 mpg average... easy driving. Drive a little less than 70 on freeway. Easy on the hills.
And I thought I could feel a little more power.
Also the engine sound was different.....Sounded better.
And the exhaust sound was different/ sounded more powerful.

It was pricey... I think about $300 plus/ minus.
I bought it thru a group buy on IRV2 forum.

Was it worth it.... yes !!! Would do it again !!!

BUT>>>>>>If you read the "link", you may find some of what I believe, may not be proven to true. Heck if I know. :lol:
Steve
2011 Born Free 22 foot RSK, rear side (corner) kitchen, E350, 29k miles.
Our first motorhome. Lots to learn. Thanks.
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FrankGRUN
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:27 pm

Re: Discussion of Operational Limitations of Ford V10 Engine

Post by FrankGRUN »

Steve and Perleys, the 5 Star Tuning is a software modification of the Ford Factory EEC computer which controls all of the engine operating functions including throttle, fuel delivery (Air Fuel Ratio), ignition timing as well as a number of transmission functions. The software "tune" is loaded through an electronic device which overrides various security protocols and gives access to programming memory in the powertrain ECM (computer) permitting the rewriting of various look-up tables in the computer memory. This is the same function that EPA certified dealers and factory technicians use to update or modify factory codes.

Much like many patent "medicines", there is no independently enforced fact checking of the advertising statements made by any aftermarket tuning manufacturer. There is always a glowing description of increased performance coupled with increased mpg and often cooler engine operation. At first glance, these claims would seem to violate several key laws of Physics and Chemistry. Increased performance requires additional energy and more energy requires more fuel. Fortunately these claims are plausible because the emission controlled engine is extremely inefficient and there are modifications of timing, fuel delivery and transmission ratios that can be manipulated to increase efficiency. The question addressed by the OP (original poster) in the cited link is just what is done in the 5 Star Tuning package, and what is the impact on your powertrain.

The phenomena of factual denial and "seat-of-the-pants-dynamometer-readings" (often unjustly ascribed solely to the male gender) comes strongly into play with pricy purchases that actually make, at best, small changes to large quantities. Therefore, the ads and internet discussions offer anecdotal (not rigorously tested or verified by multiple controlled observations) claims of substantial performance and mpg gains. Fortunately, with the right equipment (generally a computer, the tuner interface and a knowledge of the ECM file structure) it is very easy to examine the lookup tables in the ECM before and after the tuning software installation. If there is no change in a given table, then it has not been modified. The OP and the link detail just what the various aftermarket tuning packages actually change. Unfortunately, virtually nothing that would effect the operating efficiency of the V10 engine is changed.

In a way, this is understandable because it is illegal to modify a emission controlled engine in any way that is not certified by the EPA. Most owners violate this law in large or small ways and the aftermarket relays on very lax legal enforcement. However, in the last few years the EPA has gone after the manufacturer of the tuning interface used by 5 Star and most other tuning manufacturers (really vendors). The result has been heavy fines, several manufacturers leaving the business and very limited tuning packages which do nothing to fuel and ignition tables. For detail, check out the link.

In my case, I recently invested more that 400 hours tuning a Fitech Carburetor-to-EFI system for my Carbureted Ford 460 going through all of these self same tables to optimize the lean cruise operating regime. Next, I'll begin programming the ignition tables. Masochism redefined!
Frank and Paula
1982 BF 24' RB
perleys
Posts: 117
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2015 3:45 pm

Re: Discussion of Operational Limitations of Ford V10 Engine

Post by perleys »

Thanks for the detailed explanation Frank! I had just asked the Ford service desk if there was any way to improve mileage and they all exclaimed a resounding NO!
FrankGRUN
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:27 pm

Re: Discussion of Operational Limitations of Ford V10 Engine

Post by FrankGRUN »

There is much truth in the service desk reply! Mileage can be improved, but its not for the faint of heart. You need to tune the AFR (air fuel ratio) to the engine load. Lean cruise is in the range of 2,000 to 3,000 rpm on a more or less level highway. Tuning the AFR to 15.4:1 and dialing in 40 to 45 degrees of ignition advance while monitoring engine vacuum will give a real mileage increase under those operating conditions. Adding a set of long tube headers designed for high torque together with a 3" exhaust and high flow muffler(s) are really helpful. Accomplishing the above is made very difficult with the Ford 460 and V10 engines because of the lack of a knock sensor system. Most dyno shops can't handle a vehicle the size of a motorhome, and those who do generally can't handle engine speeds below 3,000 rpm which is well above the region you can need to tune. More than this can be done but would take engine disassembly.
Frank and Paula
1982 BF 24' RB
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