Coach batteries & Freezing water lines

[Ann P]

Hello all, this is my rookie post. I have a 2005 26'RSB that sat in Idaho at a friend's house while I was on a 7 week adventure in Canada and Alaska in another friend's truck camper. We did see some older BF's on the trip but no new ones- I was glad I didn't take mine up there on those roads and in all the rain we had. Meanwhile, my BF was moved just once til I got back, and I have driven once a week since. I'll return to Colorado in 3 weeks and then it will get its deserved exercise.

I checked my coach batteries: the std. Interstate deepcycle RV/marine type (which I've read are really not good RV batteries). The water levels are low, so I'll get some distilled water and add in. Then I'm thinking I should plug into the house current here for a day to charge these batteries since the 30-60 minutes drives I've been doing probably aren't enough....or are they? Otherwise, it will be 3 weeks before I get to a campground for a long charge.

I would love to hear some good comments from all you experts out there about my situation and also about these batteries, and what kind you folks use. Many thanks for your help.

p.s. if you look in the BF things for sale area , I have some like-new shades for sale since I replaced mine with blackouts.

[Steve]

Ann,
The electrolyte level (water level) just needs to cover the plates and all is well, you can add water if you like but no damage has been done if the plates are covered. I think if you drive 60 miles your batteries should be charged and the engine battery as well so you should be good.
The batteries will get a better charge if you drive rather than letting the onboard converter (Parallax 7300) charge them.
We have the Interstate batterys that came with our 2005 24RB but when they finally die I will probably replace them with a couple of 6VDC golf cart type batteries wired in series.
Steve

[whemme]

Ann P,

If you are serious about taking care of your coach batteries and plan on doing a significant amount of dry camping, you may want to consider replacing the 45-amp single-stage charger/converter section of your existing Parallax/Magnetek 7345 Power Panel with a good replacement 3-stage converter/charger section.

A link below to an earlier post of mine dated March 27, 2006 where this issue is discussed at length is:
http://www.bornfreervclub.org/bulletin_ ... =7345#1455

I replaced my 7345 single-stage charger/converter section with a Progressive Dynamics 60-amp 3-stage PD9160A Converter/Charger section with the optional Charge Wizard. This system recharges both of my Interstate SRM-29 coach batteries quickly using the Onan generator after over-night drain from lights, TV, Fantastic Fan, and/or furnace operation. Also, since installing this smart charger system, I have not had to add any distilled water to my coach batteries in two years.

I have a detailed procedure with photos to make this conversion at the following website: http://home.earthlink.net/~whemme/

[Brent]

I am an advocate of the 6 volt golf cart style batteries. You will need two of them and they will need to be wired in a series.

The brand I use is Trojan. They are made to withstand heavy use. I've been very pleased with them.

[Ann P]

Hi, thanks for the reponses. I found out that my friend disconnected the house battery and then turned it back on when we returned after the 7 week trip, which was good. I'm not living in the BF now; it's in the driveway, getting weekly drives, while I house-sit. But I just learned that we have a cold front coming in here in Idaho, with 22 degrees forecast for this Sat. night. So I reckon that would be the time to plug into the house current and turn on the RV furnace, and open the cabinet doors. All the tanks are empty. I can't leave til 3 more weeks and don't want to winterize for that short time. Will turning on the furnace for these overnight cold spells be enough to ward off any problems?

[whemme]

Ann P,

Be careful if that 22 degree temperature hangs around too long. Running the furnace and keeping the cabinet doors open will help but there are other water lines that that heat will not reach.

You and I have the same 26' RSB and I froze some water lines this March 2006 on an overnight stay in Gallup, NM when it turned quite cold that night. There are both hot and cold water lines running thru the outside left rear wall to your shower. Also, water lines to your outside shower run in this same wall and the furnace heat will not reach those lines. Although the lines did not freeze hard enough to burst, they did freeze hard enough so that I had no hot water supply to the shower; why the cold line did not freeze is a puzzle. I had to use my wife's hair dryer running in the left rear compartment door (under the ladder) with an extension cord to heat that area and unfreeze the lines. A close call that could have been expensive to fix.

Two gallons of RV pink antifreeze costs only about $6.00 to completely winterize all of your water lines and water traps and that is cheap compared to replacing burst water lines and repairing water damage to your floors and cabinets. I did not expect to freeze that night but I was wrong!

[bechlumber]

I have gone skiing in my Born Free and to make sure the water lines behind the shower in my 24' rear bath do not freeze I run a small electric heater at night in the shower. I have also put some added insulation thru the rear access door. I have never had any line freeze. I put some antifreeze in my tanks to keep them from freezing.

[whemme]

Jeff,

I assume your 2002 24' RB has an outside shower on the left side like my 2002 26' RSB. How do you protect the water lines feeding that shower assembly on cold outings?

[Mike Jean Bandfield]

Jeff,

I assume your 2002 24' RB has an outside shower on the left side like my 2002 26' RSB. How do you protect the water lines feeding that shower assembly on cold outings?

Bill, check behind the drawers under the stove directly behind the outside shower. If your unit is like mine you will find 2 valves that will allow you to close the lines to the outside unit. This was an item I specifically asked the factory to install but I seem to remember them saying it was a standard feature.

This time of year I'm not ready to winterize yet, so I've already turned off the outside shower and I leave a heater on low on the cold nights.

When it starts getting real cold I'll lose interest in Oregon camping then I'll drain the tanks and blow the lines out ...or head south. (It might be that time now. Its almost noon and its sleeting outside. brrrgh )

PS. I'm considering wrapping all the lines on that side of the coach in those pipe wrapping wires so that when I have shore power available I can have more positive control over the situation. Anyone tried this that can share their experience?

[whemme]

Mike and Jean,

Nice to know that additional info. However, if you were to shut off those valves, would you not have water trapped in those lines going up to the outside shower system that could still freeze and burst those lines? I would be worried about freezing both those inside hot and cold lines and also the shower hose itself due to the water trapped in them.

I have always felt that the only safe way to winterize was to pump RV antifreeze thru all of the water lines and to fill the traps with a little added to each of the 3 tanks and make sure to drain the water heater before any of this procedure is started. An alternate winterization process for water lines only is to blow the water out with a pressurized air hose but I have heard comments from the field that this method does not always blow out all the water, especially from low points in the system. Water that stays in those low points could still freeze and break water lines.

I know that having to winterize a Born Free only to want to use it again in a few weeks is a real pain. I have been there many times and it is always a struggle to decide what to do. We probably are lucky that the Born Free water lines and hoses are plastic and will expand to some degree before bursting so they can take a minor freeze; but a hard freeze will burst the lines. I know that burst water lines and the associated water damage to the floor, walls, and cabinets can get very expensive to repair, especially if the water pump has been left on when the burst occurs.

Sorry for the lengthly post on this subject.

[Judy Harris]

Bill, we may have just been lucky so far, but we have used our 26' RSB several times for skiing and have had no problems with freezing pipes. We do turn off the outside shower and haven't done anything else with those lines but we probably should. With the furnace on, the bathroom is very (too) warm with the door closed so maybe that helps the inside shower lines. We do put antifreeze in the tanks and have tank heaters and keep antifreeze in the shower trap after it froze when it got down to 8 degrees one night in Humboldt. Our only problem in very cold weather has been with the valves to the gray and black tanks freezing so that the lines could not be opened to dump. We have a digital heat gun that we use very carefully when that happens.

Judy Harris

[Mike Jean Bandfield]

I've updated this process at: http://www.bornfreervclub.org/bulletin_ ... p&start=15 A couple of years after writing this we experienced a small leak in the water pump which could have resulted from freezing. Since then I've started blowing out the water pump - an easy process.

*********************************************************I only have 15 mos. experience with the BF configuration so I don't claim expertise yet. Last year and this, living in the high desert, we had freezing nights beginning in September and ending in June. However, using these strategies and watching the weather reports we continued to use our water system until November without winterizing. Then from December through April we rewinterized 3 times. Here's my routine.

Re: Outside shower

However, if you were to shut off those valves, would you not have water trapped in those lines going up to the outside shower system that could still freeze and burst those lines? I would be worried about freezing both those inside hot and cold lines and also the shower hose itself due to the water trapped in them.

It's a matter of degrees - literally. You cited the difference between a hard freeze and slight freeze of short duration. I'm not recommending this procedure in lieu of winterizing. It can minimize the risk until you winterize.

Close the line valves to the shower then open the outside valve, pull the hose all the way out and drain it. Leave the outside valve open.

I keep storage areas with plumbing and the bathroom doors open and a small electric heater on low when the forecast is for the low 30s and high 20s. If the forecast is for the low 20s or a sustained cold spell I blow it out.

Re: Water lines

I have always felt that the only safe way to winterize was to pump RV antifreeze thru all of the water lines

I did the pink stuff for way too many years. I'm no longer a proponent of RV antifreeze in the water lines. It seems lilke no matter how much you rinse the lines you can still smell and taste it and I don't want the stuff in and on my body.

Last year we were on our way back to Oregon. The weather was very cold and we were low on pink stuff and couldn't find any in CA stores. We decided we'd blow out the lines until we could get to an Oregon store for more pink stuff.

It was an enlightening experience. The enlightenment comes from the positive feedback you get from actually purging the system. The process of seeing and hearing the air and water clearing the lines leaves you with little doubt that the procedure was complete. (It's one of those things you have to do to fully understand.) It took about 5 minutes and left such a small amount of moisture in the lines I wasn't worried. The pump was a bit of a concern since it is not transparent but it seemed dry - and it worked fine the next time we used it. We did it twice again last winter as we traveled north and south. I'm sold!

We won't bother with the pink stuff again except in the traps and a little in the waste tanks. Just make sure the fresh water tanks (water heater too) are empty and the line to the pump is empty. As for water collecting in low spots I can't see that being a problem in the BF since you can easily examine them and blow out remaining water until you can see that they are clear.

Pluses:
- It's so easy

• - Fast! About 5 minutes.
  - No plumbing to disconnect and reconnect

- Cheap (once you own the compresssor)

• - Uses minimal pink stuff. (1/2g vs 1-1/2g)
  - Blow out air adapter about $2 at CW

- No rinsing and rinsing and rinsing the anti-freeze taste out of the lines when refilling.

Negatives:
- Arguably slightly riskier than the pink stuff. (I think it boils down to sloppy procedures which is a risk with either method.)
- Helps to have 2 people -one to hold the air hose to the adapter while the other opens and closes valves.

Issues:
- Don't use too much pressure. (I set the compressor to 35 pounds.)
- Requires a compressor with tank.

• - You need a volume of high pressure air to sustain an adequate flow which a small tire pump can't deliver.

- Don't risk oil contamination $$$$.

• - Make sure air lines are oil free
  - Don't use a compressor unless you know it is oil free

- Ice could destroy the water pump which is near the system low point under the fresh water tank.

• - There could be a chance that if you move the BF after blowing out the lines that residual water in the frsh water tank could find it's way to the pump.
  - If I was really concerned I'd simply remove the pump and take it inside the house.

- Equalization tanks and filters might be difficult to clear.

Bill, the pink stuff ain't for everybody. If you have a compressor, try it and I think you'll be surprised. Pressurize the system and open and close all drain valves and faucets several times. You soon get a sense of how often you need to do this. Move from the top end of the system around the coach and finish at the hot and cold line drains. If after a few minutes of purging and examining the lines you are not convinced it is safe enough then continue with the pink stuff. You'll only lose a few minutes and less than $2 for the adapter.

Mike

[bill crommett]

Do I ever feel lucky ! In the foothills of South Carolina the temperature seldom gets below 20 degrees F and for this a small electric heater is suficient, with the bathroom door propped open. If the temp is going to go down real low, which occurs here every ten to twenty years, I commandeer the boat barn for the Born Free and close the door and fire up the big elctric heater which keeps everything nice and toasty. If we are traveling north in the winter, I blow out the whole system, add antifreeze to the black and grey water tanks and carry enough coffee , drinking, and flushing water in 2 Litre plastic bottles.

[Ann P]

Wow, I wish you smart guys were in the Teton Valley, Idaho with me now, although you wouldn't enjoy being this cold, this soon ...but the RV/skiing types could be busy . It's trying too snow right now. Forecast today is 41-31 degrees;tomorrow 52-29. I have the furnace on in the RV & a ceramic heater I'll use soon. The notorious pink stuff is on hold. If I do use that stuff in the tanks, either for this cold spell or the next one, is it ok to leave it in the (now empty) black tank when I'm ready to go ? At that time, I want to put water in and the toilet treatment enzyme , and I hope they won't "mind" the pink stuff.

My goal in full-timing is to not be in places where I have to blow-out the lines,etc. or use the antifreeze, tho that can be wishful thinking. I don't have a compressor,etc. and am not sure of everything you whiz-types are talking about, but I will find techs who do. Have been to Life on Wheels and have some RV books, but find this kind of stuff daunting on my own,especially since I'm not mechanically-inclined. That's why I got a BF, because they are well-built , and I am glad I found this forum,even if I'm over my head on these tech issues.

P.S. why are these forums difficult to print out? the whole page doesn't get formatted on my printer nor in a Library. hmmm...

[bechlumber]

Bill,

I have no water in that line.

Jeff