Diesel advantages over gas

[Roger H]

Dallas, in response to your original post, for the great majority of owners, there is no benefit to a diesel over gas, and in most cases a penalty in long term expenses. They're certainly less convenient than gas engine for fuel,service and maintenance. They may offer more torque and that may be worthwhile for a few owners, but for the majority there just isn't. There are applications where they excel, but unless there's a specific used coach I just can't live without and someone ordered it wit a diesel I'll never bother with owning one.

I've towed my Jeep JKU over some pretty serious terrain with my Kodiak's 8.1L gasser and never came close to running out of power. It's more in the gearing.

[deshet]

It appears that many of you have never owned a diesel so the benefits aren't easy to determine. If I was buying new the cummins diesel beats all of the gasoline powered options availalbe in every measurable catergoy. If I was buying used a Powerstroke 7.3 or 6.7 or any Cummins Powered RV would top my list. Emission requirements have created some reliability issues for diesel engines. Cummins has always produced a respectable engine. Every Ford diesel can be made extremely reliable with aftermarket support. The Ford 7.3 and 6.7 are best made Ford diesel powered engines in recent times. The extremely rare GM powered RV with a duramax is great between 2005 and 2008 and 2012 and beyond. All of these engines have after market support that can produce 15-19 MPG in a heavy loaded RV. All of these diesels will outlast and out sale the GAS counterpart. These are made to run all day long with very little problems and every truck stop in the country can service them. They all are used in dump trucks, school buses, tow trucks, and vehicles that need to operate continuously ensuring that businesses don't lose money.


Have you ever seen an OTR (over the road) gas powered truck? (Semi trucks)
Do you plan to tow a toad?
An RV isn't a minivan it is a house on wheels stopping powered is critical.....RV get cutoff all the time this stopping power is needed on flat roads also.
Do you plan to tow a trailer?
Will your RV sit in the driveway more then it is used? (Ethanol breaks down and causes issues while sitting in gas tanks long term....Diesel doesn't have that problem.

Ford owns most of the RV market. The entry level Ford V10 can be found in the worst entry level RVs out there. The ford V10 can be found in Pickup trucks (F250 and base model F350s) and Econoline Vans. You will not find a Ford V10 in the Ford F550, and F650. The diesel engines are available across the platforms from the F250 to the F650. The diesel is more capable. People that make a living off of there vehicles buy diesel. Three to five mpg is a significant cost savings.

Diesel resale is always extremely higher. Diesel engines are made to last longer. A gas powered RV has to have something extremely special about it to have any real value with 100,000 miles. Most RV will wear out long before a diesel engine is ready to give up.

The typical RV has more in common with a school bus then it does it a Honda Civic.

Diesel Generators, Diesel Braking, and Air breaks are some extremely valuable add-ons found on high end diesel RV. The somewhat negative thing about your average diesel powered RV in the new and used market is most RV builders up-sale the entire RV when diesel powered is added from the furniture to appliances and all of the finishes.

Gas vs Diesel horse power and torque are measured very different. Gas engines usually produce peak horsepower and torque at over 5000 rpm. Your RV will likely never see advertised horse and torque numbers of a gasoline engine. A diesel engines operates at peak RPM ranges during most of driving scenarios. (1800 to 2300 RPM)

Doing major repairs on a van based RV is terrible. Book labor are much higher on Vans. You will save on repairs long term when your diesel on needs yearly synthetic oil changes.

If you can afford the extra price of the diesel upgrade I highly recommend it. The maintenance costs, fuel savings, power, torque, braking power, and resale value will make up for the extra costs. Avoid an early 1999-2001 Ford V10, they had spark plug issues.

If a 7.3 powered Bornfree was listed in the For Sale section it would be purchased extremely quickly and it would likely be worth nearly the same money for the next few years. I have seen people buy the diesels used keep them a couple of years and break even and sometimes make money. That is not common with Gas Powered RVs.

[Roger H]

First, I have towed both a trailer AND I have a towed behind my Kodiak chassis 8.1L gasser and suffer no performance issues. I don't need to find a truck stop to have my truck worked on. Parts are readily available at auto parts stores, and most mechanics can work on it if they have a door tall enough to get it into their shop.

While everything you say about diesels is true, what you're overlooking is that most folks don't push their RV 100k-200k miles/year like an OTR truck, and they don't operate like a school bus, dump truck or other commercial vehicle. They're casually used typically less than 10k miles a year for most folks who own a motor home.

If I were going to drive a motor home 50-100k/year, and I planned to keep the coach ten years, then a Freightliner M2 chassis Super C would be my first choice. But I don't, nor do most folks. I'm probably a heavier user than most as I put nearly 10k miles on my coach a year. That's a far cry from 100k+.

For most folks looking for adequate power and ease of maintenance for a low-mileage vehicle like a class C, and looking for longevity and low operating and maintenance expense, a gas engine makes sense. A diesel just doesn't add any value for those folks, and the costs don't make sense.

As.I said in my earlier post, there are reasons to buy a diesel, and more power to the folks who can make the most of them, but for the majority of motor home owners, they just don't make sense financially or practically.

[deshet]

First, I have towed both a trailer AND I have a towed behind my Kodiak chassis 8.1L gasser and suffer no performance issues. I don't need to find a truck stop to have my truck worked on. Parts are readily available at auto parts stores, and most mechanics can work on it if they have a door tall enough to get it into their shop.

While everything you say about diesels is true, what you're overlooking is that most folks don't push their RV 100k-200k miles/year like an OTR truck, and they don't operate like a school bus, dump truck or other commercial vehicle. They're casually used typically less than 10k miles a year for most folks who own a motor home.

If I were going to drive a motor home 50-100k/year, and I planned to keep the coach ten years, then a Freightliner M2 chassis Super C would be my first choice. But I don't, nor do most folks. I'm probably a heavier user than most as I put nearly 10k miles on my coach a year. That's a far cry from 100k+.

For most folks looking for adequate power and ease of maintenance for a low-mileage vehicle like a class C, and looking for longevity and low operating and maintenance expense, a gas engine makes sense. A diesel just doesn't add any value for those folks, and the costs don't make sense.

As.I said in my earlier post, there are reasons to buy a diesel, and more power to the folks who can make the most of them, but for the majority of motor home owners, they just don't make sense financially or practically.

The 8.1 in your Kodiak can tow but it consumes a lot of fuel. It is actually a great motor and does well in the Chevy Suburban. You bought it used and likely saved a bunch over its duramax powered cousins; since you purchased used you likely didn't have a bunch of used diesel options to choose from. In 2006 the duramax was about a $4000 upgrade. Try an find a 2006 duramax powered RV within $4000 of a similar powered gas model and you will have a hard time. The diesels command at least a $10,000 premium in used market and the life time depreciation curve is easier to handle. If you look at the ROI and the total cost of ownership diesel makes since if the purchase price is within range. People don't sell the diesel units and the price gets driven up.

My research shows that a 2000 diesel powered bornfree is commanding more money then similar 2006-2007 gas powered units.

Everyone has to figure out what makes since to them. In my mind I think diesel is the only way to go new. If buying used you have to figure out what makes more since for your situation. RV prices are all over map, but Class C/Class B diesels are hard to find and command more money. Most RVs are parked way more then driven. Diesel is the better choice for garage queens and those that fulltime. The diesel resale will help put some of that money back in your pocket.

I am currently looking for 1996 - 2001 Dodge Cummins 4x4 RV and they command $25,000-45,000. Even the 2wd units are near 18-25. Similar aged RVs that likely had easier lives and no real mileage usually aren't worth $10,000 with gas engines. When making a decision look at the entire picture, I know that it is hard to find a 2006 C4500/C5500 duramax powered BornFree for under $60,000 and it will likely be hard to find one for under $60,000 for some time. The deprecation curve for the 8.1 vs the duramax 6.6 will continue to spread as time goes on.


NADA Values

2006 Chevrolet SILVERADO 2500 HD PICKUP-3/4 Ton-V8

8.1L V8 Engine $11,575 $13,000 $14,175 $17,400
Turbo Diesel Engine $17,225 $18,650 $19,825 $23,700
Rough Trade Aver Trade Clean Trade Retail


Nada is more realistic for trucks vs RVs. This is the same truck with 100,000 miles and 1 change, the 6.6 Turbo Diesel vs 8.1 Big Block Gas Engine. The diesel earns back the price premium and then some. It has given more MPG, more reliability, and required fewer oil changes.....

[Roger H]

The 8.1 in your Kodiak can tow but it consumes a lot of fuel. You bought it used and likely saved a bunch over its duramax powered cousins; since you purchased used you likely didn't have a bunch of used diesel options to choose from. In 2006 the duramax was about a $4000 upgrade. Try an find a 2006 duramax powered RV within $4000 of a similar powered gas model and you will have a hard time.

You're absolutely right, and you actually support my point. The 2006 Duramax also blew head gaskets regularly which was not inexpensive to repair. They finally came out with metal gaskets that do better, but that's just not my idea of a reliable engine. The 8.1L gas engine has no such defects. And, you have to define "a lot of fuel." I average about 9mpg with the Kodiak, and that's with or without my Jeep JKU in tow... it doesn't care. That's pretty respectable as I only averaged about 8mpg with an Airstream B190 I had on the Econoline 350 chassis with a 460 in it. And frankly, it's my understanding that the Duramax Kodiaks average about 13-14mpg. That's just not a significant difference in overall fuel expenses in a 5,000 mile travel season; especially when diesel costs 30% more per gallon than unleaded gas.

Everyone has to figure out what makes since to them. Class C/Class B diesels are hard to find and command more money. Most RVs are parked way more then driven. Diesel is the better choice for garage queens and those that fulltime. The diesel resale will help put some of that money back in your pocket.

I'm just not convinced that's the case. Even though my 8.1L uses 10 quarts of oil, that's either only 2/3 or 1/3 (depending on which diesel engine) of what the diesels take. So that's added expense per mile. Then there's the added expense per mile of diesel fuel over gas. Plus you have to pay medium-duty truck shop rates to get any work done on them where the places I go charge standard shop rates. When you calculate cost per mile, the mpg diesel offers over gas really isn't any less expensive. Whether or not the diesel option will pay back hinges on a LOT of factors; not the least of which is how little you paid for it when you buy it used. If YOU pay a premium for it, you may or may not see that return down the line. If you buy it for little more than a gas engine, the you'll do well with it later on the used market.

When making a decision look at the entire picture, I know that it is hard to find a 2006 C4500/C5500 duramax powered BornFree for under $60,000 and it will likely be hard to find one for under $60,000 for some time. The deprecation curve for the 8.1 vs the duramax 6.6 will continue to spread as time goes on.

And here's where the gasser really shines on the used market... I bought MY Kodiak chassis Born Free for roughly HALF what the Duramax chassis are demanding. I'm getting the same utility, paying HALF the interest charges for a shorter period of time, and for what I've saved in the purchase price, if need be I can put FIVE new crate motors in mine before I catch up to what the folks pay for the used Duramax coaches with iffy head gaskets. While it's true that my coach may depreciate faster than the diesel coaches, there just isn't as much there to depreciate, so I just can't lose as much in the long term. And when the time comes, because I can afford to sell it for less money, the used market is actually larger for mine.

Sorry... I really do understand your position, and thought for a bunch of years that I'd really like to own a diesel moho, but experience and running the numbers show me that, at least buying used, buying a diesel just isn't of benefit for me, nor, I suspect, the majority of folks who buy this kind of motorhome. The numbers, at least for me, just don't match the sales hype. As I said, if I were doing 50k-100k miles a year, and planned to keep my coach for ten years on the road, I'd be all over those Freightliner M2 chassis Super-C's. But for the kind and amount of traveling I do... the gas engines remain a better option financially and for ease of fueling, service, and repair.

[John S.]

Well I have owned a gas BF for 9 years and have the records to look up. Some day or other I will get my royal splendor on the dodge 5500 with the diesel engine. In a couple years I will look up this thread and see. I order my diesel delivered to the house. It is 2.09 last tankful. I ordered pure gas not ethanol and it was 2.69 a gallon. I get 3 to four miles per gallon better fuel mileage in my grand Cherokee with my fuel vs the ethanol. If you find pure gas at the liberty stations around the east coast you will see that the price is a bit higher then number 2. Oh and my diesel is 100 percent dino no bio in it and that adds about 2mpg to my truck vs the same trip with b10.

[Mike Jean Bandfield]

My experience:
Cons:
- The 2005 6.0 Powerstroke had some issues with the oil cooler and turbo sump that required a $5K after market upgrade and the continued use of a cetane boost additive. Ford did nothing to fix or reimburse for the product deficiencies and I'm pretty PO's about that still.
- The diesel adds 500# weight that comes off your cargo capacity.

Pros:
- 12+ avg mpg over the last 12 years. (Diesel cost is ~.20/gal less than gas again.)
- Pulling power! As others have tried to say diesels give the driver a sense that it maintains speed with hills and loads with much less effort than a gasser. Lower RPMs = less wear.
- Longevity, dependability, low maintenance and resale value.

[Dallas Baillio]

As the one who started this discussion here is my take after reading all posts. I have not read a convincing argument for diesel over gas or gas over diesel. Yes I have read personal preferences for diesel and for gas. However if you read every post carefully you read opinion not facts or, if you accept some opinion as facts, you still get mixed results. We should close this thread and consider it a draw.

[Roger H]

It absolutely is a draw, Dallas. "Advantages," as you asked for in your original post, are ALWAYS in the eye of the beholder.

Each engine has strengths and weaknesses and each buyer has to decide what their specific needs are and choose accordingly.

Basically diesels' strong points are longevity and a perceived increase in power under load. Their weak points are that they're more expensive to buy and more expensive to maintain. Fuel costs are likely a wash as they get slightly better fuel mileage, but usually diesel fuel costs more at the pump offsetting the mpg difference.

The trick for gas engines is getting the RIGHT gas engine/transmission/rear end combination for the task at hand and you'll see excellent longevity and reasonable operating expense with much less difficulty finding service and parts at reasonable cost.

In the final analysis it's really all about how YOU use your coach that dictates which type of engine is better for YOUR application.

[deshet]

Everyone wants to feel good about the decisions they make and they should. Ignoring 50% more fuel efficiency and using generalizations is easy to do when you defending your own decision. (The duramax head gasket issue (a $3000 problem) was resolved in Dec 2005) This was also covered by warranty for 100,000 miles. The engines put into the Vans (c5500, c4500, g3500) are detuned and rarely present this type of problem. The majority of the problems came from people running performance chips adding 200+ horsepower and commercial car haulers using standard pickups towing 40' car trailers.

The 8.1 had cylinder deactivation issues in other vehicles but that has nothing to do with this conversation.
A heavily modified 8.1 created 274 RWHP @ 4075 RPM on the dyno. (4000 RPM in RV, get real) Although the discontinued 8.1 was a good engine it does make usable power in the right place for RV owners. This is something that a person driving Gas vehicles exclusively will never understand. Most people cruise in the 1800 to 2200 RPM range, that is a diesel engine sweet and you have all of the capability (usable horsepower and torque) available all of the time.

It looks like Motor Home Magazine did an article of the 8.1 C5500 and most owners are getting average dismal MPG numbers
http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fusea ... t/true.cfm
People often inflate MPG, I know a guy with a Ford 7.3 Excursion that gets "28 MPG." I know that he is not being honest but I don't say anything. It looks like the average C5500 with the 8.1 is getting 6-8 MPG depending on which Allison they have. (5 speed vs 6 speed) Most owners are reporting 6 MPG towing a toad. Most Class 5 (C5500) trucks aren't diesel powered because people think that it is cool.


Fact the Federal government has increased emission standards on New Diesels and the regulations caused reliability issues. These regulations have caused older diesel without the regulations to increase in value. This information is easy to verify. In my area, it is easier to find a Bald Eagle then to find a 20-year-old Cummins pickup in good shape for under $10,000

To the original poster. NADA doesn't depreciate diesel RVs based on mileage regardless of the year. That is a fact that cannot be ignored.

For the same money or near the same money, diesel is the clear choice. You have to figure out your situation to see how much extra money you are willing to spend for the diesel option. I bought a low mileage Viper for one summer years ago. I bought it for a good price got my use out of it and sold it for $2,500 more than I spent. A few RVs exist that allow an insightful person to protect their investment although the initial purchase isn't low. A 2006 C5500 Born Free with a Duramax has been worth the same amount for some time. It is rare to see a Sprinter for under $30,000 regardless of miles and age. A 7.3 Born Free can almost command any price the seller wants, often double the gas powered counterparts. Your first RV likely won't be your last RV.

Fact NADA doesn't depreciate Diesels based on Mileage.

[Dallas Baillio]

We have strayed from my initial post, something that none of us can control and something that often happens. I really wanted the discussion to focus only on BF diesels vs gas.

The best post to me is what Shiloh dad said:

"As for lasting into the mid 100 thousand miles, how many of us keep our coaches that long? And, if we did, does the rest of the coach and its systems last that long? How much would it cost to maintain the rest of the coach and its systems as long as the diesel engine lasts?"

To me this really makes the comparison a wash because sufficient data to analyze and evaluate these costs is not available.

[deshet]

We have strayed from my initial post, something that none of us can control and something that often happens. I really wanted the discussion to focus only on BF diesels vs gas.

The best post to me is what Shiloh dad said:

"As for lasting into the mid 100 thousand miles, how many of us keep our coaches that long? And, if we did, does the rest of the coach and its systems last that long? How much would it cost to maintain the rest of the coach and its systems as long as the diesel engine lasts?"

To me this really makes the comparison a wash because sufficient data to analyze and evaluate these costs is not available.

Bornfrees aren't the only Coaches built. There are more than enough examples of old Coaches out there to use as a frame of reference. Even after you die your estate has some value so at some point your coach will be for sale.

It is okay to say that you don't care for diesel or the you didn't want to spend the money or that you don't have the money but "sufficient data to analyze and evaluate" is out there. Search the ads in the forsale forum of this site alone. I would bet that less than 5% of Bornfree Rvs are diesel powered, the vast majority choose the cheaper gas option. I have seen new low-quality Class C RV leaking at RV shows. Stepping up to the quality of a BornFree is a hard pill for many "especially baby boomers" to swallow, adding the price of a diesel isn't an option for most. These RVs are aimed at the working class so I understand the reasoning but know that diesel will always be the better choice overall.

[Roger H]

Ok, Dallas... you want some hard numbers...

First, going to NADA on MY coach, a 2006 Kodiak chassis 32' rear queen with the 8.1L V8...

It shows the MSRP as $131, 420 and the current NADA average retail as $53,903 as equipped with 40k miles on it. To my surprise,
my coach in diesel (no mileage with a diesel generator) equipped the same also shows an MSRP of $131,420, but the current NADA average retail comes to $47,075, a difference of $6820 to my good over the diesel. Now I know that my gasser was actually around $147k new and that the diesel version of my coach was about $154k new... a difference of about $7,000... so if we're going off NADA, and I'd bought mine new, I'd be about $14,000 ahead on my gas coach. I'll attach a .pdf document comparing the two.

That said, I know that the diesel coaches are actually selling for $55k+ and I bought mine for under $40k, but there were so few of these built, around 17 of them IIRC, that very few of them come on the market.

Now... deshet's link above to the RV.net thread indicates that most folks are getting 6-8 mpg with gas and around 11 with diesel in a Kodiak chassis. So, my 8.5-9mpg isn't really out of range. Let's use 8.5 mpg and say 11 mpg for a diesel. Today, unleaded is $2.19 and diesel is $2.49/gal here in town. Let's say that you drive your coach 5,000 miles a year... so my coach at 8.5 mpg costs me $1,288.24/year and if I had a Duramax at 11mpg it'd cost me $1,131.82... a difference of $156 for the year in fuel expenses. I doubt many of the Duramax coaches are realizing 11mpg, but we'll go with that.

My gas engine needs a tuneup at 100k miles... but that cost is a wash, offset by the extra seven quarts of oil that the diesel needs at every oil change. Diesel repairs are REALLY expensive when you need them, but let's say for the sake of this comparison that both will run without the need of major repairs.

Again, if I were traveling 50k-100k miles a year, I'd look at a diesel because of their general longevity... but, expecting that all other expenses are about equal, I'm just not coming up with where a diesel engine is worth what you pay for them in a coach that's driven 5,000 miles a year or less. Or probably even 10k miles a year. I wouldn't necessarily avoid them if I didn't have to pay more for one, or if otherwise the coach was what I wanted, but I certainly wouldn't pay a premium for one in coaches like ours.

[Dallas Baillio]

This is (I hope) my last post on this subject. My quote of Shilohdad was misunderstood. He was speaking of a BF as a whole -- chassis, transmission, cooling system, etc. Even the generator, refrigerator, furnace, a/c, inverter, propane tank and other systems.

It then follows that if we accept a Diesel engine BF last longer than a gas engine BF, unrelated components may fail and add to the cost of ownership of the diesel. These are the added costs that I addressed when I said sufficient data was not available to evaluate.

So in reality it is a crap shoot. What is it they say about investment returns? "Get a 9 percent return." And then in small print at the bottom of the ad "Your experience may differ"

[deshet]

Ok, Dallas... you want some hard numbers...

First, going to NADA on MY coach, a 2006 Kodiak chassis 32' rear queen with the 8.1L V8...

It shows the MSRP as $131, 420 and the current NADA average retail as $53,903 as equipped with 40k miles on it. To my surprise,
my coach in diesel (no mileage with a diesel generator) equipped the same also shows an MSRP of $131,420, but the current NADA average retail comes to $47,075, a difference of $6820 to my good over the diesel. Now I know that my gasser was actually around $147k new and that the diesel version of my coach was about $154k new... a difference of about $7,000... so if we're going off NADA, and I'd bought mine new, I'd be about $14,000 ahead on my gas coach. I'll attach a .pdf document comparing the two.

That said, I know that the diesel coaches are actually selling for $55k+ and I bought mine for under $40k, but there were so few of these built, around 17 of them IIRC, that very few of them come on the market.

Now... deshet's link above to the RV.net thread indicates that most folks are getting 6-8 mpg with gas and around 11 with diesel in a Kodiak chassis. So, my 8.5-9mpg isn't really out of range. Let's use 8.5 mpg and say 11 mpg for a diesel. Today, unleaded is $2.19 and diesel is $2.49/gal here in town. Let's say that you drive your coach 5,000 miles a year... so my coach at 8.5 mpg costs me $1,288.24/year and if I had a Duramax at 11mpg it'd cost me $1,131.82... a difference of $156 for the year in fuel expenses. I doubt many of the Duramax coaches are realizing 11mpg, but we'll go with that.

My gas engine needs a tuneup at 100k miles... but that cost is a wash, offset by the extra seven quarts of oil that the diesel needs at every oil change. Diesel repairs are REALLY expensive when you need them, but let's say for the sake of this comparison that both will run without the need of major repairs.

Again, if I were traveling 50k-100k miles a year, I'd look at a diesel because of their general longevity... but, expecting that all other expenses are about equal, I'm just not coming up with where a diesel engine is worth what you pay for them in a coach that's driven 5,000 miles a year or less. Or probably even 10k miles a year. I wouldn't necessarily avoid them if I didn't have to pay more for one, or if otherwise the coach was what I wanted, but I certainly wouldn't pay a premium for one in coaches like ours.

Roger H.....YOU POSTED THIS MARCH 4 2017...This is listed at $74,000

Once again, I almost never re-post a for sale ad, but it is such a rare occasion that a 32RQ comes up for sale... I have only seen one other for sale since I bought mine, and it was purchased by a member here... I believe that I read that there were only 17 of these built total so they're pretty rare.

In any event, I just found this one for sale at the Desert Autoplex in Mesa AZ. No idea what the price is... it's not listed.

Without further ado, the ad:

http://www.desertautoplex.com/default.a ... lInventory

YOU POSTED THIS MARCH 4 2017 This is listed at $74,000

As you know. None of those retail values are accurate. Post yours for $47,075 and see how long it takes to sell. You bought yours for under 40k some time ago for a reason. That was the market value, market value has the diesel ahead nearly $35,000, that is more than enough to cover the added costs. Do you really think that a gas and a diesel coach were the same amounts? How many people pay even close to retail for these?
Post a C4500/C5500 diesel for $47,075 and fight the buyers aware. I will be the first in line to buy it.

The diesel is like buying insurance for your investment slowing down the depreciation curve drastically.