Winter travel and build info needed

[skpiste]

Hola Y'all,

Its a bit quiet around here so I hope to get some input. I plan on a semi full time existence in the North Central Cascades and traveling heavily into the Canadian Rockies during Winter.

I am looking at possibly acquiring a 26RSB and have a few questions on model years. Information is hard to find on many specifics for BF model years.

Insulation:
Does anybody know what were the first model years Low-Emissivity Insulation was utilized ?
Appears that on earlier units the cab over is just straight fiberglass or I am incorrect ?
Is the majority of the cabin fairly tight ? Comparing to Bigfoots here but I can take a few points lower on the R-Value.

Windows:
Were double pane glass standard in all years or is it hit or miss ?
Frame-less windows. How are they in the Cold/Heat ?

Diesel coaches are rare only up to 2004 I assume ?

Liquid Springs sound awesome. 2014 and later ?

My other options would be Bigfoot or Host although I may just get a Forester TS for the increased MPG and drive-ability. Both the Foots and Host are ugly beasts with terrible aerodynamics and even more hideous interiors. Some of that can be overcome but even the older BF's are lovely machines with leather appointments. All the current TS models have some major build issues but are considerably lighter.
I think if I can find an older unit the budget would allow for lower MPG. $20k buys a lot of gas and the Triton is a proven powerplant.

Anybody else using these for Ski Bummin ? Will have Quad Van do a 4x4 conversion so I need the best candidate year. Likely stripping a lot of cabinetry and other conveniences I won't need for better snow travel. Its not about gettin her goin its about gettin her stoppin !

All for now,
TIA,
Paul
PDX
USA

[Roger H]

Having had two Bigfoot TTs and two Born Free mohos, and having friends with a Bigfoot moho I can probably help a little. I also do winter travel in my B-van, although my Born Free is winterized and stored. I've spent 10* nights in my Coachmen and had to run both the propane furnace AND the generator and electric heater to keep the interior of the van above 60*. A Bigfoot TT will do better than that... a larger motorhome likely won't, regardless of brand.

Bigfoot is built (with the four-seasons package) to spend brief periods in below-freezing temps. Born Free is built to be a three-seasons coach. You cannot "winter over" in ANY RV without substantial preparation and mods. No RV is built for winter residential use outdoors. A travel trailer does better than a motorhome in sub-freezing temps because it has no van cab. The van cab has no insulation and standard automotive windows and glass. Be sure you shut your dash vent system off so you don't have a free flow of air in and out.

The dual-pane windows are more adequate for cold weather than single pane. Not significantly more adequate, just more adequate. The insulation in Bigfoot is better than Born Free. I can't answer your question about the specifics of insulation.

If you choose to stay in an RV in sub-freezing weather for any significant time (more than about 18 hours,) you need to winterize your water systems and have an alternative way of disposing of waste water/sewage and taking on fresh water; usually bottled as you won't be able to use your tank(s) or your freshwater system. You will not be able to keep the coach warm enough for the waterlines not to freeze. You need to find a way to use fresh bottled water, heat water on the stove top, bathe and do dishes in a wash basin, dump the waste water outside somewhere, and use a porta-potty you can dump somewhere instead of the coach's plumbing.

Last is there's no public spigots or dump stations that will be available in winter conditions. They're all winterized and/or under snow, and even if you could get to them your hose and sewer hose would likely freeze and be un-manageable after they were out for a few minutes.

There are a lot of practical considerations for staying in an RV in sub-freezing temps, and knowing what to do as a short-term solutions they're fine. Living that way for a winter is probably not ideal.

[skpiste]

Thanks for the input Roger,

The plan for the Home-Base is to have the rig skirted and also stored in an enclosure (Pole Barn type with clear top for the solar benefit). Wenatchee has 300 days of sun a year and much warmer than Iowa for sure. Most living will be done in Old Hickory Sheds with a wood stove of course. Power from the PUD is 2¢ a KWH so would likely just run ceramics to prevent freeze up.

The trick will be on the road. Eastern WA/OR can get pretty frosty and being in an alpine environment will present a challenge. I am talking 3-5 day journeys with lower elevation travel in between. Canadian Rockies about the same and I can always escape into the lodge if needed.
Could be a lot more work involved with rigging a BF. Lots of AeroGel and 12v heating cables. I am thinking 1k in solar for any rig and a long handled broom to keep the snow clear. Full thermal curtain between cab and coach not even an option. Travel skirt as well.
I currently spend some sub freezing night is Seattle in my Phoenix popup without any issues. My dog and I are WELL insulated !

Love to hear a Bigfoot vs Host experience. I just really dig the BF's and don't mind investing the time or money. Heck its going to be 17k just to go 4wd.

PEACE

[Roger H]

Thanks for the input Roger,

The plan for the Home-Base is to have the rig skirted and also stored in an enclosure (Pole Barn type with clear top for the solar benefit). Wenatchee has 300 days of sun a year and much warmer than Iowa for sure. Most living will be done in Old Hickory Sheds with a wood stove of course. Power from the PUD is 2¢ a KWH so would likely just run ceramics to prevent freeze up.

The trick will be on the road. Eastern WA/OR can get pretty frosty and being in an alpine environment will present a challenge. I am talking 3-5 day journeys with lower elevation travel in between. Canadian Rockies about the same and I can always escape into the lodge if needed.
Could be a lot more work involved with rigging a BF. Lots of AeroGel and 12v heating cables. I am thinking 1k in solar for any rig and a long handled broom to keep the snow clear. Full thermal curtain between cab and coach not even an option. Travel skirt as well.
I currently spend some sub freezing night is Seattle in my Phoenix popup without any issues. My dog and I are WELL insulated !

Love to hear a Bigfoot vs Host experience. I just really dig the BF's and don't mind investing the time or money. Heck its going to be 17k just to go 4wd.

PEACE

The 10* temps I referenced weren't even in Iowa... they were in Wichita, KS!

Good luck with your plan. Please report back about what you did, how you did it, what it cost, and how successful you were. There will be a lot of interest in your experience, regardless of which coach you choose.

[skpiste]

Well might come down to numbers at this point.
UVW's:
Born Free 26 - 13,000 +/-
https://www.bornfreervclub.org/bulletin ... php?t=1377

Bigfoot 24DB
UVW 9920 lbs
Length 24’-8”
24SL - 10478 lbs

Forester TS 2371
Length  25.5
Dry Weight  8050

Winnebago Fuse 23T.
Dry Weight 8,203
Length 24’

Factoring in stopping and drive-ability in snow the Transits are coming far out ahead. Yeah build quality is far below the other 2 but MPG will be around 30-40% higher. Plus that fact that the E-Series platform is dead in 2020 weighs in.
Once again leaning Forester TS as it also looks to be easier to pullout the overhead cabinets to install bunks. Likely remove other conveniences I do not desire.
Bigfoot is still in play but they are ugly beasts.


So the plan would be:
Custom made thermal cab curtain (Aerogel or similar)
Insulate the small slide out and seal the reported leaks.
Remove stupid stuff like microwaves etc. (we'll be eating in the bar thank you)
Remove excess cabinetry and other dead weight.
Install DOT Jump Seats (Convertible to sleep if I can find such)
Install composting toilet. Replace black tank with propane and install Blue Flame heater: 30k furnace + 20k blue flame = Toasty toes.
Utilize or install fresh water tank valve and pump out lines (run dry/self prime pump if not installed).
Drain to waste Gray water (only soaps allowed in my rig is Dr Bonners)
Build interior storm window out of 1/4" polycarb and Velcro to frame-less.
Run heat @ 55˚ to keep dog alive.

Go play in the snow all day. Hang out with Canadians and drink their tasty beers at night. Hopefully meet some of their fair skinned sisters.


Anything else I forgot ?

PM
PDX
USA

[oliverpsmile]

For some times now, I've been thinking to circulate hot water from the HW tank throughout the entire piping system to prevent freezing. It just takes a circulating pump (on and off periodically), opening all faucets and capping the outflow. In addition, filling the thanks with highway type salt will prevent any freezing.

[skpiste]

For some times now, I've been thinking to circulate hot water from the HW tank throughout the entire piping system to prevent freezing. It just takes a circulating pump (on and off periodically), opening all faucets and capping the outflow. In addition, filling the thanks with highway type salt will prevent any freezing.

I had that in the back of my mind although its a bit of engineering. Since the rig would be empty most hours of the day I think draining will work best. Probably pump back into the holding tank and just keep that warm. Maybe extend the shower hose or which ever plumb run is the longest.

PM

[whemme]

My experience with my 2002 26' RSB coach is that the 1st thing to freeze is the hot water line feeding the shower. The next to freeze will be the shower drain U trap. The next to freeze will be the black and gray water dump valves so that you can't dump either of these tanks. Running a hair dryer for about a half hour inside the compartment door near the bottom of the rear ladder will generally unfreeze the shower hot water line. My experience is that overnight temperatures down to about 20 degree F will result in the freeze ups noted.

[skpiste]

That's a good insight no matter what coach I choose. The only one of those that will affect me is the shower trap. I will be getting a composting toilet (replacing the BW with propane to run a Blue Flame). Grey water will drain to waste (Castile soap only) and fresh water will be purged daily.

Already leaning back toward a Transit Diesel as snow travel will be 5k#'s easier. Found out that 4x4 conversion is just under 14k so 4 cheaper than an E Series.
Yeah I know the build quality on Win-A-Bagels is not even close to a BF but I like fixing stuff. Will feel less bad about ripping out all the conveniences that I don't need. Bye Bye overkill on the storage, second TV, chefs kitchens and other items that don't contribute to getting 1st chair powder runs. Hello bunk beds and paying tours !

Bet I can strip 500#'s+ of rolling suburban house from a Forester TS or Fuse ,
PM
PDX
USA

[Dave Rotelle]

Had you considered a Phoenix Cruiser, we recently sold our 2016 Cruiser when we purchased our Born Free Freedom. I wish I still had the picture I took of the outside temp last year north of Old Forge, NY. it was 18 below and nothing in our Cruiser froze. We spent the prior night in Old Forge, when we woke up it was 4 below.
As we drove north to Lake Placid the temperature dropped to 18 below. I've enclosed a picture of my son pumping gas in the morning before we drove to Lake Placid.
We have owned several Born Frees and two Phoenix Cruisers......I'm still a Born Free die hard but the Phoenix Cruiser is a good quality RV manufacture still willing to make modifications.

Dave

[skpiste]

Had you considered a Phoenix Cruiser

Dave

You don't say -18 eh ? You know I have flirted with the Cruisers but keep coming back to the transits for the MPG.

Man Whiteface is one COLD freaking mountain ! I grew up in VT so between WF and Jay Peak I'm not sure which is more miserable (or gorgeous). Love the snowmobile right at the pumps BTW...

So what kind of MPG were you getting and which model ? If I could score a Diesel already running 4wd that would be ideal. I do remember not being thrilled with the floor plans but if its a used unit I can rebuild the whole thing. No one is making a sub 28' bunkhouse so I would be going rogue.

I'm watching the Old Man from Pawn Stars show off his motor homes now ! It looks like all the tanks are built into the coach and not just bolted up to the frame. Huge advantage for sure and I can port heat to the storage if its not already. I also seem to recall that all the plumbing and wiring runs through the coach which is a huge plus.

Well you have opened up the proverbial can of worms again. Going to check the Phoenix UVW's and floor plans. I think we have another top 5 contender here and one that was made in this decade. Plus if I can shave 20k off the upfront costs that buys a lot of fuel over time.

Thanks,
PM
PDX
USA

[Roger H]

You know I have flirted with the Cruisers but keep coming back to the transits for the MPG.

Fuel expenses are not something to worry about if you're going to buy a motorhome and trash it by stripping it and rebuilding it as you're proposing. Depreciation is going to cost you a LOT more than the cost differences in mileage (or fuel) between coaches. Once you strip the tanks and plumbing out, the resale market for your motorhome becomes very small... and the value plummets. With a notable few exceptions (4WD chassis for example) a stock factory motorhome is always worth more than one with a home-built interior, or a chop job on a factory interior. More importantly, though, is that over the miles you drive your coach in a year the annual difference between the highest mileage coach and the lowest mileage coach in their fuel expense usually less than $500.

If you're commuting 20,000 miles a year or more, a Prius at 50mpg makes a lot more sense than a one-ton-truck at 12mpg. Motorhomes usually are driven less than 5,000 miles a year and the fuel mileage range is typically 10-22 mpg anyway. The fuel costs of motorhomes in the Class B/C groups just aren't significantly different enough to justify fuel expense as a shopping consideration.

I wrote this a couple of years ago about the misconceptions motorhome shoppers have about what's important financially when shopping for a coach. http://www.fiberglassrv.com/forums/f51/ ... post558516

Just a different perspective.

[skpiste]

Fuel expenses are not something to worry about if you're going to buy a motorhome and trash it by stripping it and rebuilding it as you're proposing. Depreciation is going to cost you a LOT more than the cost differences in mileage (or fuel) between coaches.
Just a different perspective.

Sorry missed that you posted again here. So I guess tearing apart a new Forester would be a costly endeavor haha !
I am now thinking of getting an older Cruiser and adding removable bunks over the twins. Might just leave the tanks in place then and keep them drained, add another Manchester tank and a blue flame for extra heat and or backup. I then have more money to do full body paint and get rig of the hideous graphics on these things. Not sure who thinks this looks good but decals ?? Really ?

Of course if I was smart (I am at times) I would just get a Bigfoot or a HOST. Often a used HOST will have tube bumpers and a winch to get that high UVW out of the ditch.
One of my considerations is snow handling and the less weight the better. Fuse/Forester has an advantage there and conversion is 3k cheaper as well. Wish they had been out longer so I could score one used as a project vehicle.

Whatever I do end up with I had better like it. Old Modifying Monty will likely be stuck with it if I make it into too much of an Albatross

PM

Off to go read that article.

[skpiste]

Hi Roger,

You are a prolific poster on the boards. Read some of the other things at Fiberglass RV.

What do you think of the Chinooks for my purposes ?

PM

[skpiste]

After I am done with my mods will I have this ?

https://www.rvt.com/Other-Rectran-Disco ... 2-UX139541