Page 5 of 6
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 12:23 pm
by bbwolf
Steve, perfect! All of this helps with my education on this subject. There seem to be so many opinions out there that it is sometimes difficult to distinguish fact from fiction. Note: I do have and use the Kill-o-watt meter. It is a great addition to the tool set, just like you say!
What Telecom company or companies have you worked for? We just may have some peers in common.
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 12:26 pm
by bbwolf
Steve, will do sir. Still continuing my education on this, but so far, the one from Camping World is the closest. They make the same model as a portable and permanent installation. I still don't think I'm done yet seperating fact from fiction though.....
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:52 pm
by Steve
Alan,
I live in the Northwest (Wa) so I started working for Pacific NW Bell Telephone at that time part of AT& T, then after divestiture US West Communications and after they were bought out by Qwest Communications and retired in 2004. I see they are about to be purchased by CenturyTel/Link. I worked in a group called "Special Services"; that would only mean something to another telco employee.
Steve
Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 9:12 pm
by Steve
OK, Alan I found another surge protector with a remote display that I like:
http://www.progressiveindustries.net/ems_hw30c.htm the price is a bit higher but when I checked where I could install one it was under the stove top and just to the left of the sink in a 2005 24RB.
Steve
EMS-HW30C
Surge Protector with Voltage Protection
and Remote Display
Hardwired for 30amp RV's
Retail: $299.00
3 Year Warranty
5"W x 9½"L x 3¼"H
Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:00 am
by oliverpsmile
bbwolf wrote:So far, the best I can tell, we are looking for a surge protector that:
> Shuts down faulty power [Response time 1 nanosecond]
> Removes power if the voltage level drops below 102V or rises above 132V.
> Once the voltage resumes within these parameters, power is restored with a time delay to allow for AC head pressure bleed off.
> Monitors for faulty wiring from the power pedestal and protects from reverse polarity and the dangers of open neutral condition.
> Multi- mode surge protection eliminates the potential for power surges during electrical storms.
> Lifetime warranty on surge protection circuit.
> Surge Suppression (Joules) 1,750 [or above]
Nothing personal friends just opinion:
Shooting the power under 102 volts is absolutely annoying and do not prevent any damages. For example, NYC Con Edison during every summer lowers the voltage by 10-12%. Thousand of businesses and private homes even work at 95-100 volts with no interruption (myself included). The only eventual effect in RV is the A/C unit, provided the impossible lack of thermal (high temperature) or over current protection.
132 volts or more at the receptacles can not be seen. Our power distribution is getting overloaded by the day (notice no new power plants are built and the wind and solar are no match for growth). Besides 132 volts are quite tolerable by the majority of electronic equipments (have you noticed 120~240 volts on the label?).
"Faulty wiring" is 99.9% impossible - trust the electricians and the inspectors and previous RV-ers.
So called "surges" occur on the high voltage lines and all substations are protected against lightening. In addition, the bunch of transformers providing power to your RV have this natural capabilities to saturate their magnetic curves and not allowing the "surge" to get to your RV. Unless lightening strikes on the line from the last transformer to your RV. Who in this weather is going to watch TV or work diligently on the computer? It is equally possible for a lightening to strike your TV antenna. Is your RV antenna grounded?
In addition, now days all TV sets and computers have built-in capabilities to protect themselves from high or low voltage (in the later scenario you loose your current document).
To me, spending $400 and make myself miserable with unnecessary power interruption is a very bad choice. It would be cheaper to insure you "precious" equipment.
Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:19 pm
by bbwolf
oliverpsmile, thanks for the info. This is sure what I was hoping for, good input from knowledgeable folks!
The folks that repair electrical components seem to be of the opinion that there products have been damaged by low power at the source and from surges caused by someone elses electronics (but on the same line as us at the campground). Also, the local campground "handi-man" sometimes wires a plug incorrectly, causing a reverse wiring connection.
That is what I've heard so far.
Steve, I really like the product you posted. I'm going to look into it a bit further.
Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 7:29 am
by lonvanostran
oliverpsmile wrote:bbwolf wrote:So far, the best I can tell, we are looking for a surge protector that:
> Shuts down faulty power [Response time 1 nanosecond]
> Removes power if the voltage level drops below 102V or rises above 132V.
> Once the voltage resumes within these parameters, power is restored with a time delay to allow for AC head pressure bleed off.
> Monitors for faulty wiring from the power pedestal and protects from reverse polarity and the dangers of open neutral condition.
> Multi- mode surge protection eliminates the potential for power surges during electrical storms.
> Lifetime warranty on surge protection circuit.
> Surge Suppression (Joules) 1,750 [or above]
Nothing personal friends just opinion:
Shooting the power under 102 volts is absolutely annoying and do not prevent any damages. For example, NYC Con Edison during every summer lowers the voltage by 10-12%. Thousand of businesses and private homes even work at 95-100 volts with no interruption (myself included). The only eventual effect in RV is the A/C unit, provided the impossible lack of thermal (high temperature) or over current protection.
132 volts or more at the receptacles can not be seen. Our power distribution is getting overloaded by the day (notice no new power plants are built and the wind and solar are no match for growth). Besides 132 volts are quite tolerable by the majority of electronic equipments (have you noticed 120~240 volts on the label?).
"Faulty wiring" is 99.9% impossible - trust the electricians and the inspectors and previous RV-ers.
So called "surges" occur on the high voltage lines and all substations are protected against lightening. In addition, the bunch of transformers providing power to your RV have this natural capabilities to saturate their magnetic curves and not allowing the "surge" to get to your RV. Unless lightening strikes on the line from the last transformer to your RV. Who in this weather is going to watch TV or work diligently on the computer? It is equally possible for a lightening to strike your TV antenna. Is your RV antenna grounded?
In addition, now days all TV sets and computers have built-in capabilities to protect themselves from high or low voltage (in the later scenario you loose your current document).
To me, spending $400 and make myself miserable with unnecessary power interruption is a very bad choice. It would be cheaper to insure you "precious" equipment.
Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:12 pm
by bbwolf
This does seem to be at the center of the controversy. Two issues:
1) Is a surge protector needed or not.
2) If our electronics do need to be protected, how much of it needs covered? At the power pole, or just a couple of the more expensive (and possibly sensitive) electronics?
I wonder if I could be so bold and ask our esteemed Bill Hemme to provide his opinion? Any advice from your education and background experience sir?
Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 5:59 pm
by Roadtech
A year ago, I was camping in my 2006 BFT and a terrible lightning storm came up suddenly. The lightning was popping all around me. I never lost power, but the next night when I tried to use my microwave it was fried. A couple of weeks later my converter/charger stopped working and had to be replaced. I think a surger suppressor that protects for over/under voltage is a necessity.
Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:47 pm
by whemme
Alan Wolfe and others,
I have been RV'ing now for a total of 11 years in two different Born Free coaches and so far I have never suffered damage due to either an electrical surge or low AC voltage at a campground pedestal. Maybe I have just been lucky or maybe it has been a lucky choice of campgrounds that I have been to.
As a result of this, my opinion is that the risk is relatively minor but maybe not as small a risk as Oliver P. Smile suggests.
I guess my suggestion would be that for anyone worried about this possibility, no matter how small the risk of damage might be, you would probably sleep better if you went ahead and purchased a good quality surge protector and low voltage cutout device.
Since I have never used one, I would not be able to give you any brand or model recommendations. Several posters on this thread have stated that they have used a certain unit for some time and therefore had no problems with damage. And I also have had no problem with damage and I don't even use one. So have I just been lucky or is the risk really quite low? Who knows!
Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 11:01 pm
by whemme
Somehow this thread got hijacked to a different subject about surge protectors. I will now steer this thread back to the original topic which was charger/converter system replacement.
As both Alan Wolfe and Bill Dodgen noted in their earlier posts on this topic, Born Free has been installing a different version of the Parallax 7345 Changer/Converter in their coaches evidently starting sometime in model year 2008. That different model is known as the 7345P and it uses a different DC fuse and power distribution pc board which somewhat complicates what was previously a relatively easy installation of the modern Progressive Dynamics PD4645/PD4655 or WFCO 3-stage Charger/Converter units.
I have posted new information to make this conversion easier in the
Coach Modifications section of this website. A direct link to this new post is as follows:
http://www.bornfreervclub.org/bulletin_ ... ght=#11833
Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 7:19 am
by Bill Dodgen
Great job updating your conversion upgrade instructions, Bill. Also, thanks for your efforts in finding the modular plugs with wire leads installed. Having a set of those male-ended Mate-N-Lok plugs (red, green, blue and orange) will greatly ease the process of upgrading to the Progressive Dynamics converter/charger. With those plug and wires, you will simply unplug the old Parallax DC board plugs (5 of them). Then, after installing the new PD board, cut the new plug wires to the correct length, strip back some insulation, screw the wires to the terminals, and plug the plugs back in to their mates. One little caveat, on the PD board, the left two fuses are limited to 5 amp fuses. So, it will be necessary to reach back behind the unit where the Born Free coach wires are attached to the female end of the Mate-N-Lok plugs and rearrange a couple of them. In my case, I did this with the orange plug. I simply unpluged the Born Free Auxilliary Switch wire (5 Amp,) which was in position 3 on that plug, and moved it over to position 2 (the middle wire in the plug). The wire for teh 12 volt outlets (10 amp) which was in the middle of the orange plug was moved to the right-most hole in that plug.
The Born Free house wires are connected to the Mate-N-Lok connectors with a standard butt connector, so to switch these two wires, you just unplug them, make the switch and then plug them back together.
Thanks again, Bill, for your efforts in finding these part numbers, convincing Best Converter to make them available and for updating your detailed intructions.
Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 10:58 am
by bcope01
Bill Hemme, thanks for getting this thread back on track.
Bill
Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:42 am
by bbwolf
Bill Hemme, I take full responsibility for taking this thread off-topic. My bad. Thanks for getting that corrected sir.
Bill Dodgen, I spoke with the technical support at Progressive Dynamics. Although the left two DC Fuse connectors are identified for the lower range of 5 amps, they assured me that they can go up to a 20 amp fuse and work fine. This allowed my conversion to have the top two connections of the old DC board, to be moved to this "left most" positions.
If you find out differently, please let me know.
Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 10:37 pm
by Bill Dodgen
bbwolf wrote:Bill Dodgen, I spoke with the technical support at Progressive Dynamics. Although the left two DC Fuse connectors are identified for the lower range of 5 amps, they assured me that they can go up to a 20 amp fuse and work fine. This allowed my conversion to have the top two connections of the old DC board, to be moved to this "left most" positions.
If you find out differently, please let me know.
That's great. Makes the process essentially plug and play. Wish I had known that and had the wire leads that Bill found at the time I did the upgrage. Would have greatly simplified the process.